is 22 magnum better on fox then a hummer?

[fenring]

who's posting from ignorance when you say things about figures and your wrong?

compare 17 hmr tnt, 17hmr vmax to 22wmr maxi mag 40gr, 22wmr maxi mag +v 30gr and the 22wmr vmax 30gr and have a good look at energy and bullet drop.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/varmint.aspx

What ground shaking revelations am I looking for here?

The TNT is about the worst performing HMR round - open hollow point and flat base. So it's no surprise it gets beaten.

The Vmax beats the 30gr .22M for energy as close as 75 yards out, the 20gr Gamepoint equals it at 75 yards and beats it at 100 yards. Oh, and for some reason they only show mid range trajectory figures to 100 yards - funny about that. I wonder what's going on further out, eh? Nobody seems to post velocity, energy or trajectory figures for the .22M at 150 yards, I wonder why??

Take a centrefire and just make sure of it...

Yep - if you want a dedicated fox gun then a CF is the way to go.

The fox is big game for any rimfire - it's a bit like choosing to hunt pigs with a .223. Yes, it will do the job if everything is right but why not just use something that gives you a bit of leeway?

great! now you've said that fen. piss off and take your hummer with you

I agree with Native on one thing - this place is getting more like AHN.

Fenring in your ignorance in defending the fizzer you seemed to have missed the point.!!
I in no way stated that I would be shooting anything at 150 mtrs with an air rifle, hence why I used it as a comparison,I knew this would be your comeback.
Are you saying they were all shot at 150 mtrs because if they were not and some were closer then sure they may have been able to have been shot with another calibre or air rifle.??
There is plenty of rimfire .22lr out there that would shoot considerably better than most fizzers at 50 and even 100mtrs,thers not many fizzers that can shoot very well at 100mtrs.
You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about range shooting,maybe its because it is the real show of how a gun and shooter performs,we can all point and shoot at an animal and kill it with a gun that is adequate and sighted appropriately.
I do accept that not all HMR rifles are of the same quality and not all shooters are of the same ability on paper or in the field.
A 40 grain pill will be more effective at 150mtrs than a 20 grain pill will be, I'm not about to go diggin and quoting figures for you but the hold over is not overly large and with a little experience can be mastered.
I will continue to knock the calibre because I dont like it ,thats my opinion,you have yours and I have mine.
You can imply that Im a keyboard hunter all you like but I assure you I have spent more time in the field than alot of people in years gone bye,I base my statements on years of experience and by no means do I claim to know it all.!!!
Your three years of experience is well received by many here but by no means is it the be all and end all of the HMR,there are alot more people out there that have sent more rounds down range in the field and on paper than you and some have good comments some have negative comments.
So you keep shootin your fizzer and if I want to take a shot at something at 150mtrs I will use a centrefire and be sure its goin down, if not the .22lr or magnum will suffice.
Maybe you can see it in your self to agree to disagree.???
Over to you fen.!!
Regards
Native

I have no "issue" with range shooters, though over my many years of shooting both longarms and handguns I have found these places to be infested with frustrated wannabe hunters and anal old men who offer advice even when it's unwanted and unrequested. So I tend to avoid such places.... Shooting tiny groups off a bench with bags, bipods, wind flags and a warm latte close to hand is one thing, IMO it equates little to hunting for obvious reasons and for that reason I find it's like watching the paint dry.

I will of course keep shooting my HMR, for the purpose I bought it - having fun sniping rabbits out as far as I care to with next to no holdover, not having to reload, not having to pick up brass and if a larger varmint like a fox or cat appears then it's a better proposition than the .22LR by a fair margin at any range. The HMR like the .22M is basically designed to do exactly what the .22LR does - but to be able to do it further out. In other words, they are small game rounds. I don't get why anyone thinks they are anything else. Yes, they can kill larger game but they are not ideal. As I said above, choosing a rimfire as your main fox gun is like choosing a small varmint centrefire as your main pig gun. It will work a lot of the time but you will have failures.

Now, if I was to set out intentionally to target foxes then a small CF would be my choice - as I have no desire at all to own such a one trick horse the next thing I grab out of the safe is the 6.5 Swede. That tends to be pretty effective on foxes....

I think by far there are more happy HMR shooters out there than the other sort - or the sort who have never owned one but slag them off all the same.

[Plowboy]

Geez there is some feeling about HMRs here! It's only a rifle! I have one and like it for what is is designed for, rabbits and the occasional fox. Shit I have killed goats with it! However it's not my go to rifle. That is the .223. Yes it's not too cheap to shoot for what it is and if I has thought about it more, I would have probably went straight to CF as I have a .22 but it's not something that keeps me up at night! If ya don't like 'em don't buy one! Some people love them as many love .204s but it's not the only rifle to get, if you don't like it get something you like and go with that. This is a mini AHN isn't it??

[fenring]

Geez there is some feeling about HMRs here! It's only a rifle! I have one and like it for what is is designed for, rabbits and the occasional fox. Shit I have killed goats with it! However it's not my go to rifle. That is the .223. Yes it's not too cheap to shoot for what it is and if I has thought about it more, I would have probably went straight to CF as I have a .22 but it's not something that keeps me up at night! If ya don't like 'em don't buy one! Some people love them as many love .204s but it's not the only rifle to get, if you don't like it get something you like and go with that. This is a mini AHN isn't it??

Sums it up for me too mate.

[andrewk]

fenring, so you didn't notice that the 22wmr 30gr vmax has 164ft-lbs @ 100yds and the 17hmr 17gr vmax is 138ft-lbs at the same distance???

what are you not seeing?

and what did you post about hummers and wind not too long ago??

FYI that's a hummer sitting next to that fox in my avatar and i would call that shot placement too. i do use my hummer in the field alot cos i too mainly target rabbits, it's got some pretty big pluses but when i target fox i'm not too keen to take it out. i have plenty of guns in different chamberings and i've found from experience pro's and con's with all of them.

have you used a 22wmr in the field? cos that's the information i'm asking about.

this place is turning into ahn cos the moderator is overly opinionated and narrow minded.

you slagged me off last year about the same thing and all i want now was peoples opinion about a cartridge that you've shown no experience in.

try to be most useful rather then rubbing in how good you are with your fricking hummer and maybe we'll all get along.

[kjd]

Geez I'm glad we got rid of all the off topic stuff on this thread haha.

Like anything its whatever floats your boat.
Some people find the 17hmr suitable for foxes, others dont. I think this has a lot to do with where you are shooting and the distances as well as how educated the foxes are. Of a night 100 and 150m isn't all that easy to tell the difference to but those 50m make a huge difference with a little pill like that. My take is, if you want a fox gun use a centrefire. Though I've shot foxes with 22lr before I don't recommend it and would reach for my centrefire any day.

This same argument can be had with almost any game and any cartridge.

[andrewk]

Geez I'm glad we got rid of all the off topic stuff on this thread haha.

Like anything its whatever floats your boat.
Some people find the 17hmr suitable for foxes, others dont. I think this has a lot to do with where you are shooting and the distances as well as how educated the foxes are. Of a night 100 and 150m isn't all that easy to tell the difference to but those 50m make a huge difference with a little pill like that. My take is, if you want a fox gun use a centrefire. Though I've shot foxes with 22lr before I don't recommend it and would reach for my centrefire any day.

This same argument can be had with almost any game and any cartridge.

thanks keith, that sounds like an honest un-biased opinion.

222 rem next weekend it is!

[native hunter]

kjd-I had a little chuckle when I read your last post,Its been a funny post to read and the comments have been wide and varied on opinions and topic.
There is never going to be a definitive answer that satifies everyone.
I say buy what ya want and shoot it heaps and have fun doin it.!!!
Native
PS-No Andrewk, The .204 is varmint king.!!!

[kjd]

Geez I'm glad we got rid of all the off topic stuff on this thread haha.

Like anything its whatever floats your boat.
Some people find the 17hmr suitable for foxes, others dont. I think this has a lot to do with where you are shooting and the distances as well as how educated the foxes are. Of a night 100 and 150m isn't all that easy to tell the difference to but those 50m make a huge difference with a little pill like that. My take is, if you want a fox gun use a centrefire. Though I've shot foxes with 22lr before I don't recommend it and would reach for my centrefire any day.

This same argument can be had with almost any game and any cartridge.

thanks keith, that sounds like an honest un-biased opinion.

222 rem next weekend it is!

Well it is unbiased mate I have never shot a WMR, and only shot a HMR on bunnies. I found the HMR to be adequate but it didn't knock my socks off. In fairness, it is heaps better than a 22lr but doesn't compare to a 222 or 223 or even a 17rem but that is obvious. If I was to get a rimfire for foxes I'd chose a 22WMR for the pure fact that I think that at lower velocities the .22x diameter bullet by virtue, carves a larger wound channel and probably would stay together a lot more than a 17hmr which would lead to increased penetration. It all comes down to shot placement with these rimfires though and whether it be a 22lr 22WMR or 17HMR a shot in the head will drop a fox instantly. We don't always have that luxury though and I hate missing a fox so that's why I'm most comfortable with a centrefire and a chest shot of a night as you can rarely go wrong with that.

Native,
Ahh I'm guilty of taking shit off topic I'm a huge offender, I take the bait when its put there, I'm an easy fish to catch. Especially when I know I'm right but that's not always what is best for the board.

[fenring]

fenring, so you didn't notice that the 22wmr 30gr vmax has 164ft-lbs @ 100yds and the 17hmr 17gr vmax is 138ft-lbs at the same distance???

what are you not seeing?

So, the 26 ft/lbs difference in energy makes the .22M that much more effective??

Again, where are the 150m figures for this .22M load?? Has anyone even bothered to find those out??

Jeez, if I wanted to just shoot to 100yards I could load Stingers in my .22LR...

and what did you post about hummers and wind not too long ago??

Yeah, they get blown around - knock me down with a feather! So does the .22M - it's suggested that it gets blown around more.

have you used a 22wmr in the field? cos that's the information i'm asking about.

Not for a long time - I have mates who own them. (they got them when that's all there was - .22LR or .22M) And for the record I'm not saying the .22M is bad in the way others are saying the HMR is bad. I have not slagged off the .22M - like most calibres it has it's uses. And unlike others here I haven't offered up anecdotal information about what I've seen with regards to the .22M. I've only spoken about the HMR's performance in my experience. But I'll hapily go on about my mate's inaccurate Stirling .22M to counter Native Hunter's rifle range stories about all these scattergun HMR's. Same thing, really.

I find it funny however that .22M proponents who crow about the heavier 40gr bullet and it's alleged "knockdown power" then crow just as loud about the faster, flatter shooting 30gr Vmax. Jeez, trading off a whopping 25% bullet weight and all must really cut back on that "knockdown power."

this place is turning into ahn cos the moderator is overly opinionated and narrow minded.

No, it's getting like that because you get the occasional wanker here, like all forums, that's all.

you slagged me off last year about the same thing and all i want now was peoples opinion about a cartridge that you've shown no experience in.

try to be most useful rather then rubbing in how good you are with your fricking hummer and maybe we'll all get along.

Not sure when I "slagged you off" - clearly you were cut to the quick if it was a year ago and you still remember. You'll forgive me if the incident hasn't left such a deep impression on me. I haven't said I was "good" with my HMR - simply spoken from my own agreeable experiences with the round in the field, myself. Now, if offering up your own, real world, no Google, non internet based experience is wrong, then there's no point in posting on forums, is there? And if that's the case, why did you ask the question at the start of the thread in the first place - just go and get your new barrel and try it out for yourself - sounds to me like your mind is made up.. Or did you not want opinions - in which case we all just wasted time and bandwidth.

[Knackers]

Lets keep the shit fight going here's a quote from chuck hawks,

In developing the .17 HMR, Hornady was aided by rifle makers Marlin and Ruger. Together they were seeking the highest velocity possible in a rimfire cartridge consistent with reliability, accuracy, and reasonable manufacturing economy. The .17 HMR was designed to outperform the .22 WMR in velocity and trajectory, and be less susceptible to wind drift. It was also to have a similar maximum range, no greater noise level, be less susceptible to ricochet, and operate at the same pressure. All this in a cartridge designed to meet an intrinsic accuracy standard of 1 minute of angle (MOA) or better.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/17HMR.htm

[fenring]

Knackers, one thing that I understand hamstrung the HMR from greater feats was the requirement for it to be adaptable to existing .22M rifles. Thus pressure and hence velocity was limited to what we have. As I understand it Hornady had it running at 3000fps but pretty much only the Ruger 77/22 was strong enough for that sort of pressure.

No manufacturers were going to jump in with both feet if they needed to build new actions so suit the calibre, seeing as it's just a rimfire small game round. Especially as the 5MM went the way of the dodo. ( and it beats both the HMR and WMR as I recall....)

[Knackers]

Knackers, one thing that I understand hamstrung the HMR from greater feats was the requirement for it to be adaptable to existing .22M rifles. Thus pressure and hence velocity was limited to what we have. As I understand it Hornady had it running at 3000fps but pretty much only the Ruger 77/22 was strong enough for that sort of pressure.

No manufacturers were going to jump in with both feet if they needed to build new actions so suit the calibre, seeing as it's just a rimfire small game round. Especially as the 5MM went the way of the dodo. ( and it beats both the HMR and WMR as I recall....)

Thats a pity cause at 3000 fps they could have put a 25g pill in it to make whacking the bigger stuff a bit more opitional out yonder.

[fenring]

Well, a 20gr Vmax at around 2850fps would have been good.

[Plowboy]

Thing is that everyone wants a rifle that can tick all of the boxes but we all know that is never going to be with current technology. Now why would most people go for a rimfire? IMO cheap, quiet and easy on body damage(for eating). HMR is really none of these if you think about it. Not really that cheap, a bit louder than a .22 and if you hit 'em in the guts they make a hell of a mess. As I said I have never shot a WMR but I would think that it may fit this a little better but really both the HMR and the WMR are an attempt to get more performance than a .22lr. The .22lr fits all the boxes of a rimfire. Cheap, quiet(even moreso with subs) and easy on meat.

If you want more performance CFs are the go but due to our stupid firearms the noise factor goes out the window. They can be cheap if you reaload(a big advantage over rimfire) but otherwise a bit expensive and meat can be flung all over the shop.

Foxes to the best of my knowlegde are not eaten and pelts are worthless so I reckon blow 'em to bits!

If we could have moderators, a 19 Calhoon badger/hornet would take the place of the HMR and I would maybe exchange the .223 for a .243 or similar for medium ferals. But we are stuck atm with idiots who are more interested in pleasing a clueless population than workable, common sence gun laws so HMR will prbably stay.

You never know in years to come, we maybe shooting some coilgun with adjustable power so you could set the perfect power for every shot and there would be no shitfights over personal opinion.

Every new calibre comes under attack from the old school shooting crowd. Whether it is justified or just fear of change is another thing but the HMR is good enough for what it is designed for. Rabbits and the occasional fox.

[badger74]

Thing is that everyone wants a rifle that can tick all of the boxes but we all know that is never going to be with current technology. Now why would most people go for a rimfire? IMO cheap, quiet and easy on body damage(for eating). HMR is really none of these if you think about it. Not really that cheap, a bit louder than a .22 and if you hit 'em in the guts they make a hell of a mess. As I said I have never shot a WMR but I would think that it may fit this a little better but really both the HMR and the WMR are an attempt to get more performance than a .22lr. The .22lr fits all the boxes of a rimfire. Cheap, quiet(even moreso with subs) and easy on meat.

If you want more performance CFs are the go but due to our stupid firearms the noise factor goes out the window. They can be cheap if you reaload(a big advantage over rimfire) but otherwise a bit expensive and meat can be flung all over the shop.

Foxes to the best of my knowlegde are not eaten and pelts are worthless so I reckon blow 'em to bits!

If we could have moderators, a 19 Calhoon badger/hornet would take the place of the HMR and I would maybe exchange the .223 for a .243 or similar for medium ferals. But we are stuck atm with idiots who are more interested in pleasing a clueless population than workable, common sence gun laws so HMR will prbably stay.

You never know in years to come, we maybe shooting some coilgun with adjustable power so you could set the perfect power for every shot and there would be no shitfights over personal opinion.

Every new calibre comes under attack from the old school shooting crowd. Whether it is justified or just fear of change is another thing but the HMR is good enough for what it is designed for. Rabbits and the occasional fox.

Not sure that moderators do much to quieten down anything traveling over about 1000fps. Something it do with breaking the sound barrier and producing a mini sonic boom.
I guess there would be a little reduction in overall noise from muzzle blast containment, but not much that you would notice.