belted cartridges...

[feralbuster]

Really, don't you guys think, with a couple of exceptions, that belted cartridges are last century's technology? Sure, there are a couple like the 375 H&H mag that need to headspace of the belt as they are long and tapered, but all the others...
I know they 'work', but then so do carby's on cars, yet EFI is here to stay and been proven to be just as reliable (if not more so), with more power and economy. It's just a bit of extra brass that a case doesn't need.

[Con]

The belt will live a long and prosperous life.
Cheers...
Con

[macca]

Given how popular the 7mm mag and 300 mag(just to name two) are i doubt the belt will be going anywhere soon.Yes they could make them without but I doubt they will.The Short magnums haven't taken over the way it was anticpated.The belt has never bothered me and I have always spaced off the shoulder.If it ain't broke!!!!
cheers,
Macca

[feralbuster]

Macca, as you say, many of the belted magnums are some of the most popular cartridges, but I guess my point is that it is just a circumstance of history, rather than the belts being of any real use to many cartridges. I'm sure cartridges like the 300WM are popular because they are versatile, shoot flat and hit hard, not because they have a belt on them! Con is right, they are here to stay, just like we will probably keep having RH drive cars, and the yanks LH drive cars- because of history- not because one way in necessarily better than the other.

[HiWall]

So what about the cases with rims then - even older, are they no good either??

[andrewk]

doesn't the belt add the strength of the case head and allow more case capacity? i'm told wsm cartridges have very thick case walls in this area to make up for not haveing the belt.

anyway theres something about holding a belted cartridge and you get the feeling it means business and your shoulder will know.

i think the 30-06 fit nicely into this forum

[chris.tyne]

And who would have thought that the belt was added in the first place to aid reliable feeding from the magazine. .



Regards Chris.

[feralbuster]

So what about the cases with rims then - even older, are they no good either??

Come on Hiwall!- you know as well as I do that rimmed cartridges are about reliable extraction from double rifles and similar break open style actions. It's not an age thing

Andrew, sure a lot of the 'big magnums' are belted, but a lot of the big 'kick arse' dangerous game cartridges aren't: eg 404 jeffery, 505 gibbs, 416 rigby, 9.3X64 brenneke then there are all the nitro express cartridges.

I'm not having a go at 'old' cartridges, nor am I much of an advocate for the new, with the exception of my 204R, all my other chamberings are for relatively old cartridges (or slight variations thereoff).

Look at all the new cartridges that have been released the last decade or so, WSM's & RUM's based on the 404 jeffery, cheytac's on the 505 gibbs, increasingly popular 338 lapua on the 416 rigby... Sure, there are plenty of rifles & ammo still made in the belted cartridges, but no one is bothered in trying to market a new cartridge with a belt

[chris.tyne]

[quote="feralbuster
Look at all the new cartridges that have been released the last decade or so, WSM's & RUM's based on the 404 jeffery, cheytac's on the 505 gibbs, increasingly popular 338 lapua on the 416 rigby... Sure, there are plenty of rifles & ammo still made in the belted cartridges, but no one is bothered in trying to market a new cartridge with a belt [/quote]

Why.........................................because it's called economics.


Regards Chris.

[220]

Look at all the new cartridges that have been released the last decade or so, WSM's & RUM's based on the 404 jeffery, cheytac's on the 505 gibbs, increasingly popular 338 lapua on the 416 rigby... Sure, there are plenty of rifles & ammo still made in the belted cartridges, but no one is bothered in trying to market a new cartridge with a belt

Why.........................................because it's called economics.

Regards Chris.

Only because the marketing people have done a fantastic job of convincing a large percentage of shooters that a new round needs to be short and fat to be effective, just as for 40 years they convinced people that a belt somehow made a round more effective. The rounds that fulfill a useful role will survive and the rest will die regardless of case design.
If a modern case design was needed to survive rounds like the 30.30, 22 hornet (rimmed) 220 swift (semi rimmed) would be long dead.

[Con]

Andrew, sure a lot of the 'big magnums' are belted, but a lot of the big 'kick arse' dangerous game cartridges aren't: eg 404 jeffery, 505 gibbs, 416 rigby, 9.3X64 brenneke

Pfff ... all the above are lightweights.

The belt has meant 'power' for a long time. It's a shame shooters/hunters have softened to the degree that they can't appreciate the 550Express and 550Magnum, 600 OverKill, 577BME, 585AHR, 585HE etc... all belted!

In dangerous game rifles there is an advantage to the belt. You can make the cartridge deliberately undersize in the shoulder (for slick feed) and still get a very positive headspace.
Cheers...
Con

[feralbuster]

Pfff ... all the above are lightweights.

The belt has meant 'power' for a long time. It's a shame shooters/hunters have softened to the degree that they can't appreciate the 550Express and 550Magnum, 600 OverKill, 577BME, 585AHR, 585HE etc... all belted!

In dangerous game rifles there is an advantage to the belt. You can make the cartridge deliberately undersize in the shoulder (for slick feed) and still get a very positive headspace.
Cheers...
Con

Sorry Con, I should have said: "quite a few of the 'medium bore' cartridges, eg 404 jeffery etc" (I had to race off and grab my cartridges of the world)
Finally someone (con) explained why the belt was introduced in simple terms!
Still remain unconvinced that belts were ever needed on the win mag family or 7mmRM

[Con]

Still remain unconvinced that belts were ever needed on the win mag family or 7mmRM

What base case do you suggest instead?

It's economics and perception. The belt has meant 'power' since the 375H&H's days. With manufacturers set up to produce 375H&H cases, making the shorter 2.5" magnums is simplified rather than tooling up to run say 404Jeffery style brass as per say Remington did with the 300RUM and its descendants. The availability (widespread!) of the 300H&H and 375H&H just made development of wildcats on that brass easy and their subsequent adoption also much easier. The 404Jeffery brass was used for a few wildcats and commercial cases, but limited availability prevented it beng used seriously until the 300RUM emerged.

Now ... the trend is beltless and go the 505Gibbs case to get more capacity.

Cheers...
Con

[feralbuster]

Con,
Base cases? Now that I've got a 9.3X64 Brenneke on the way I've bought & seen my brass up close, and really that case (correct me if I'm wrong, quoting cartridges of the world 11th edn) emerged well before the win mag family and would have been a cracker for high velocity 284/30/338 calibres as it holds about the same amount of powder, and could have been fitted into 30-06 length actions
It's not a whole heap different from the 'new' 375 ruger case is it?
More likely it's the yanks not wanting anything german post WW2!
Just flicking through the same book, even the 8X68 RWS case is non belted, and up there with powder capacity that was sought for the win mag family. At a glance, the 338 win mag with a 200gn bullet & the 8X68 with a 200gn bullet are about on par for MV...
Swamped by yank rifles etc, we don't give the euros enough credit, one of their favourite cals, the 6.5mm, is bloody good for SD & BC don't you reckon? Makes it able to literally punch above its weight (and before you have go at me about euros, I've got a safe full of remingtons, rugers & winchesters )

Finally, for australian 'dangerous' game, or even for what the yanks shoot at in north america, with modern bullets, we don't really have justification (beyond "'cause I can!") to need a cartridge bigger than your 358CRG do we? (no belt on that one hey mate!)

[Con]

feralbuster,
The Europeans certainly preceeded much of what came after ... just remember who won both wars if you want half a reason why some Euro cartridges never became popular!

The 35Whelen was beaten by 10 or so years by the remarkably similar 9x63 and the 8x68s and 9.3x64 were well ahead of the US market. But the US market at that stage hadn't developed like the European markets ... remember the Brits and Germans (for example) were supplying rifles to handle a variety of game across their empires. The Brits were sourcing strong bolt actions from Mauser ... and there's some speculation that the Germans were driving British developments to some degree. The 500Jeffery for example is a German development, as is possibly the 404Jeffery. The Yanks were still caught up with their levers and big singles and hadn't quite been exposed to bolt actioned rifles yet, certainly not powerful ones!

US wildcat development was often based on what they could source ... so Elmer Keith played with the 333OKH because the only sturdy pills in 33cal where from the 333Jeffery. Later they went to the 338cal as projectiles became available. Before the 375H&H became available as a factory rifle, the 35Whelen (and earlier 400Whelen) had emerged using the most readily available case of the time ... the 06 ... and the most readily available action ... the '03Springfield. As they became available US experimenters also played with the 404Jeffery (its believed Elmer Keith had a 35/404 wildcat) but it was never an easily sourced case unlike the 30/06 and 375H&H. By the late 1940's/very early 1950's the wildcat predecessors to the short magnums had already emerged, likewise the long magnums. In 45cal ... James Watts had already done a 2.8" and 2.5" (Winchester allegedly looked at both and settled on the shorter as a marketting play) in the 458Watts and 458Watts short. The 358STA's origins can be traced to the 350G&H. The 7mmGradle was a fair dinkum 7mmWSM 'clone' using 348Win cases with rims turned off.

Two things I reckon influenced the US developers ... the M70 action (which was long enough to accept the 375H&H ... they had bugger all prior to the M70 coming out) and easy sourcing of 30/06 and 375H&H brass. Weatherby broke the mould when he belted the 416Rigby case for the 378Wby ... but some guys like Buhmueller (spelt wrong) had played with 416Rigby based wildcats upto 50cal ... and 'developed' the 460Wby for Roy Weatherby by necking up the 378Wby. Which he tweaked as his own when some African countries mandated above 40cal forcing Roy Weatherby to introduce the 460.
Cheers...
Con