Question time... lots of input needed!!!

[Ackley Improved]

I sold the FX Storm a while back. It was a nice rifle, but really not what I was after. The pump action using the butt of the rifle really made it a PITA when prone.

I am now looking at different options for air rifles. Brands, PCP, scuba etc... you name it.

I want to do it once, and do it right!

A local shop has a HW100 in .177. It is a beautiful rifle, the wood is amazing. These things are rated at 320m/s, which is not to shabby. The price is also very very good. How do you guys rate the triggers on these rifles? I really like nice crisp triggers, and light too!

What are the down sides of going to the .177 instead of the 22cal? Range and game I guess? What is the usable range of the .177 version, say to starling/pigeon sized birds? How much more range will I get going to the 22cal?

I also like the idea of getting more shots before refilling with the .177 over the 22cal... this is the case isnt it?

What are my other choices on air rifles in PCP?

Onto scuba tanks etc.... The filler is $110 for the HW100.

What tank should I get, and where is the best place to buy one? What sort of price am I looking at, and has anyone got one that they are looking at selling… that will suit me. Not something you are selling cause its not doing the job correctly, hence your selling? How many rifle refills can you get from a full scuba tank?

So, how’s them HW100 in .177 shoot?

Cheers

[Ackley Improved]

Bugger you all...

Monday I am going to buy the HW100 in .177........... unless you can change my mind!

Cheers

[JD]

See answers in the text.

A local shop has a HW100 in .177. It is a beautiful rifle, the wood is amazing. These things are rated at 320m/s, which is not to shabby. The price is also very very good. How do you guys rate the triggers on these rifles? I really like nice crisp triggers, and light too!

Triggers are superb!! Light and crisp, no worries there

What are the down sides of going to the .177 instead of the 22cal? Range and game I guess? What is the usable range of the .177 version, say to starling/pigeon sized birds? How much more range will I get going to the 22cal?

Opinion here: But I'd always recommend .22 in PCP, especially if hunting. You can never have too much gun if the pigeons decide to charge! If it was target shooting only, then the .177 is ok. Personally I'm not a fan of .177. Yes, you can put down starlings and pigeons but I dont find it very humane (flame suit on ). If you have the choice why wouldn't you shoot them with something that hits with authority and kills with good effect? Wind effects .177 more, and if you want to do anything remotely long range (50m+) the concensus is .22. Guys are getting pretty good accuracy out to 70m or so with .22 PCP. I'd say 40-50m with .177 effective range. JMO

I also like the idea of getting more shots before refilling with the .177 over the 22cal... this is the case isnt it?

Generally not the case, but a number of factors determine this. At the same power level, .22 will get more shots as it is more efficient. It gets hard to work out when you have a .177 at 20fpe and a .22 at 28fpe. You are roughly looking at 40 shots in the HW in .22 if my memory serves me right, and a few more in .177 (maybe 60). I'll search and see if I can get the answers for you.

What are my other choices on air rifles in PCP?

The one that currently catches my eye is the FX Royale 400. 12shot, 35fpe, quick fill, pressure gauge, nice walnut stock, side lever, $2000. Blows the Rapids away in terms of features and price. Very popular and getting great reviews in the US. Supposedly with a moderator but yet to confirm if that is actually the case in Aus.

HW100, very nice function, well engineered, front heavy, pressure gauge, nice side lever and fool proof magazine. Great trigger. Power is a little down in .22, but not bad. Ugly ass stock in sporter or thumbhole. Get the later model with quick fill tanks. Solid rifle. Barrel weight which sometimes accidentally slides forwards and quietens muzzle blast

MFR. Expensive at $2700. The one I had experience with broke down constantly, however the Rapid based guns have a good reputation and are very simple in design and easy to fix. Heavy action. Look good though, but boring wood (typical of Theobens). Bolt action, 12 shot mag, no quick fill, no pressure gauge, trigger not bad. I personally find theoben stocks to be ergonimically a little weird, but maybe it's my hand size??

Onto scuba tanks etc.... The filler is $110 for the HW100.

What tank should I get, and where is the best place to buy one? What sort of price am I looking at, and has anyone got one that they are looking at selling… that will suit me. Not something you are selling cause its not doing the job correctly, hence your selling? How many rifle refills can you get from a full scuba tank?

Pretty much all PCP's will need the fill fitting to suit the tank. The MFR/rapid and old HW100 come with one that screws directly into the bottle and dont need any other fittings. The new HW does require one though. Be aware that there are two types of scuba tank fittings - DIN and K-valve (or Yoke). The K valve/yoke are only 200Bar bottles (you might find 203Bar, 220 or 230Bar). The DIN valve you find on 300Bar bottles, but can also be found on 200bar bottles also, just to make things confusing. If you have the choice go for a 300bar bottle. They are more expensive, but hold a lot more air and will give you WAY more full fills. The standard scuba tank (200bar) is basically useless in my opinion for filling PCP's as after a fill or two you can no longer get complete fills and start only getting part fills. If you have the figures handy you can work out the number of fills on this website: http://airhog.com/tank.htm

Where to buy and price, I can't really help with. I got my 300bar 100cuft Steel faber cylinder for about $400 but this was super cheap and I got lucky. I think they run closer to $600, but you would have to ring around a few scuba places to get prices. One option if you happen to have it available to you would be a BOC compressed air tank.

So, how’s them HW100 in .177 shoot? Pretty much all PCP's shoot great. Just need to find the right pellets, generally you will find heavier pellets work best in PCP's that have decent power output. The best pellets to start with are JSB, then H&N Barracua/Beeman Kodiak. They are the best starting point and will usually be the best pellet in most rifles.

Cheers

Have fun.

[gigitt]

See answers in the text.

I also like the idea of getting more shots before refilling with the .177 over the 22cal... this is the case isnt it?

Generally not the case, but a number of factors determine this. At the same power level, .22 will get more shots as it is more efficient. It gets hard to work out when you have a .177 at 20fpe and a .22 at 28fpe. You are roughly looking at 40 shots in the HW in .22 if my memory serves me right, and a few more in .177 (maybe 60). I'll search and see if I can get the answers for you.

Have fun.

I have read that you get LESS shots in 177 over 22 in a PCP.
it s to do with the amount of pressure neded push a 177 pellet thought the small tube
bit like sucking a thickshake with a normal drink straw vs a McDonalds straw.
but this will change due t how you set up the PCP if you can adjust pressures.

[JD]

My figures were pretty close. Expect just over 40 useable shots in .22, and about 55 in .177.

.177 shoots around 23fpe (980fps with JSB).

There have been comments that the .22 is not that great in the accuracy department (only likes Kodiaks but can't push them very fast-not sure on the truth about this so take this information for what it's worth) but I have no first hand experience bench shooting these guns so haven't tested them out in this regard. I've hunted and shot offhand with them, no bench testing with various pellets.

I dont want to fuel rumours but this is something that has been coming up with the .22

[Whitey]

I had a HW100 in .22. Slick rifle, good mag but didn't have QF. New models do. The side lever is very nice. Stock feels good and chunky. I did have a few issues with accuracy. As I understand they only have 1 bolt holding the barrell in place and you need to make sure it stays tight.

If I was you I would have a good look at the AirArms PCP S410. They have everything you want in a PCP. QF, guage, good mag 10 shot, side lever like HW100. Good reviews OS and particularly in US. And the biggy for me is the power adjuster located just infront of the cocking lever. Their shot count is slightly down on others and recommended fill is 200. Being able to wind back the power is good for paper punching/plinking and shooting in shedsn and increases the shot count. You can get it through Lewis. I am getting a S410 Carbine in .22 and looking forward to it. And with a beech stock looking at around $1400. Looks great.

Anyway something to think about......

[hornetboy]

Hold your left hand flat, then hit it with the tip of your right hand pointer finger. Now, repeat the exercise but hit your left hand with your right fist at about the same speed. That's the difference between .177 and .22. The frontal impact area makes a big difference on pests provided you combine it with velocity..177 has a tendency to accupuncture pests, whereas the .22 tends to put them down.I've had a selection of both and for a pest gun it's got to be .22 unless you can put the pellet exactly where you want it all the time.Claims of inaccuracy in .22 are all bunkum.If you use jsb's or kodiaks in a quality air-rifle you'll soon discover that. However,the choice is yours and If you have your heart set on the HW100 in .177, don't let me dissuade you. I have heard that in HW100's the .177 was superior for accuracy,though I have no knowledge of why.

[bsg]

How does everyone go with filling the scuba tank.
I remember years ago my brother was right into scuba and you had to have a dive cert. before any dive shop would fill a tank. It was to stop wanna be's buying an in test tank from the trading post with no idea how to use it and drowning.
Brett

[JD]

If you can get an S410 then there is no need to look any further. Great gun, if you get the walnut stock you get great timber also.

Re: scuba tank fills. I've never had a problem. I just say they are for a compressed air source for my air rifle, no one has really questioned it. You could always say it was for a paintball gun refill also, that's what I used in the US as it was easier to explain.

[Ackley Improved]

OK... thanks for ythe comments so far... this is what I want to here!

I will now give some reasoning to the HW100 in .177. I did a lot of research on teh net about this model, in both 22 and 177. It seems that it is common on the forums that the 177 is more accurate. Is this true.. I dont know, but it has come from more than one source!

I have info on the trigger and also fiddled with thhe one at the gun shop.. it is rather nice.

Now, here is the big one, and again I am uncertain on how true this is. With this PCP rifle each shot is regulated, so even though the amount of air is being reduced in the tank, it regulates each shot with the same amount of air until is gets lower than the regulated pressure. This emaning over the entire area the velocity would be the same, could be for 40-50 shots. My FX Storm was not like this, and after 12+ shots the accuracy point changed, and after 20 give up! This is really a big selling point for me, cause I love high accuracy and I dont want it falling off.

These HW100 in 177 are ment to be pretty darn accurate, over a large string of shots.

Lastly, the wood on this rifle is awesome. The figure and colour is way to good to be on a air rifle!

Oh yeah... the price is $1595.. is that good?

I have had a look at the Air Arms website and yes they look good.

Do they regulate/meter each shot for consistency like the HW100? Trigger as good as the HW100? Accuracy as good as the HW100?

What about the S410 FAC version. I think I read somewhere 360m/s in 22cal?

As for the scuba tank….. what tank would I need to grab from BOC? I have a mate that works for them!!!

CHeers

[native hunter]

G"day
Another thing to remember is what spares are available from the supplier if something goes wrong with it, and can it be fixed here or does it have to go overseas.??
My regulated MFR in .22 shoots x3 mags(36shots) consistently to the POA on 200bar, no worries, and does it with dazzling accuracy, I only run Kodiaks in it at the moment as I hunt with it a fair bit but if I was target shooting ,I stick the JSB's in her.
I have not seen the .177 hw100 shoot but I have seen and shot a .22 and it was NOT impressive.!!
Never used a quick fill but It takes me bugger all to fill my MFR tank,very quick.
Trigger is great but not as good as the steyr I had but then again not many are better than steyr.
If you are hunting with this air rifle dont buy it in .177,as a matter of fact dont buy any hunting PCP in .177, leave that calibre for the 10mtr PCP and springers.!!
I would back a theoben against most PCP in the accuracy dept in .22cal.
Regards
Native

[Ackley Improved]

Ok.. you guys are twisting my arm....


It seems the big thing for me is regulated, and regulated well. I want consistancy thoughout my shots until refill time, and I want that time to be around 30 rounds.

I am now looking at the Theobens, 22cal.

Which one is the best option, with power, accuracy, and consistancy over the shot string (regulated).

I see the Rapid MKII has some serious power?

CHeers

[native hunter]

Dont quote me on this but I think the MFR and the S-type are the only regulated theobens,LEWIS please help.!!!
Are you left or right handed.??
Some of the theoben are ambidextrous and some left or right specific.
Regards
Native

[JD]

Native is right, the MFR and Rapid S type are the only regulated Theobens (well you can get a regulator as an option the Etype but not sure if they are still making them). The regulator limits the amount of power you can get out of them, so it's the Mk2's that are the ones that you can mod to get super power out of. I'm not sure if any one here in Australia can do the mods and to be honest I've never really looked into exactly what needs to be done as they never interested me that much. I expect a new hammer, spring and probably some valve mods, possibly a longer barrel to get the power up. The big ones work best in .25. The regulator is a limiting step in getting big power as no matter what you do you will eventually get to a limit where the internal volume of the regulator prevents you getting a larger volume of air, and higher pressure.

The HW100 regulator is fantastic. The MFR and Stype are pretty impressive also.

One more I forgot to mention is the BSA Hornet or Scorpion (bolt action version of the Hornet), also regulated. These rifles have a great reputation for accurracy, just ask Harry (Yarrah), but I had a .22 one as well that shot like a house on fire. I didn't have a chronograph at the time so could give you any shot strings. But that is another option for you also.

The S410 is not regulated, but they do have a great reputation for accuracy also (most PCP do in reality). One things that people need to do with a non regulated PCP is work out the shot curve. This is something I dont often see in Aussie discussions of PCP air rifles. A non regulated rifle uses a simple valve construction that in many ways works as a self regulating valve. The velocity changes that occur are as a result of the changing effect of pressure in the cylinder working on the hammer weight and spring strength/tension and that changes how long the valve is knocked open each time the rifle is fired. Many, many PCP's use this design and have for a very long time with great results.

The shot curve is the phenomenon that when a rifle is filled to the maximum pressure and a shot string performed you will often see a lower velocity to start with (even though a higher pressure in the cylinder), then over a number of shots the velocity will raise into the sweet zone (where the perfect setting of valve spring and hammer weight is) and then start to drop off in velocity again as the pressure decreases. This usually happens over around 40 shots. If you have a chronograph you can graph this curve and then work out where you best say 30 shots lies with the least amount of velocity variation. An example is to accept a velocity spread of 20fps. A spread like this will be very hard to detect on target and is a figure a lot of people choose as the cut off. So what you will find is that the sweet zone might happen after the first 10 shots, what you then do is work out the pressure in the cylinder at shot 10 and use that as your new fill pressure. That way each time you fill your rifle to that level you start directly at the start of your sweet spot in the shot curve, and avoid the first few shots that have a lower velocity. Hope that makes sense, if not let me know and I'll describe it again.

The regulator just smooths out this shot curve. They are a nice feature, but not as important as it may initially seem if you know your rifle and it's shot characteristics. FWIW all my rifles have had regulators, BSA Hornet and Air Arms RN10. My RN10 regulator had a slow leak but the consistancy was incredible. Over a 42 shot string the variation in velocity was never greater that +/- 2.5 fps. So they can be a great thing, but the field target guys (who are known for their incredible fussiness) generally will accept an extreme spread of 20fps which shows very little true variation on the target and would only start to show a difference on targets outside of 50 yards.

So, hope that offers some help and/or adds more confusion. You cant really go wrong with Theoben, BSA, Air Arms or FX. They all have a great reputation.

FWIW, it sounds like your Storm wasn't set up optimally and likely had too much hammer spring tension, thus giving it good power but poor shot count and decreasing velocity from shot one (remember the shot curve I mentioned, you are starting at the top of that curve and can only go down). This is a tell tale sign of too much hammer spring tension. What you will often find is that by winding the hammer spring out you decrease you air consumption per shot, thus increasing the shot count with very little if any loss of power. If I could have got my hands on that rifle I'm sure i could have tuned it to give a much greater shot count and a better velocity spread. What you should have seen is a slight rise in velocity, levelling out in the middle and then a slow decrease at the end. Often by turning the hammer spring tension in too much you dont see any increase in power but you end up using way too much air per shot as the valve stays open too long and that air is no longer efficiently helping push the pellet and is waisted.

cheers, JD

[hornetboy]

Well said,JD. My Rapid MK1 .22 isn't regulated but the accuracy is incredible over a long shot string(sorry, no figures). I've never wished I had purchased a regulator, and regard them as just another link in the chain. I wouldn't get too excited about them. The rabbits can't tell the difference! Often, simplicity is best.