Rimfire Target Rifle Shooting Forum?

[Tony Z]

Sean, don't take this as a personal attack on yourself or what you may have already posted.
The first thing the Small Bore Association needs to do is allow the use of personal wind indicators and move that such usage become International. What your last post indicates is that the winner of a Small Bore event is more about luck and less about skill as it would ultimately come down to the timing of when the trigger was pulled or when the wind gusted. Granted there is a lot more to Small Bore than what i have just written, but all the checklist of breathing, holding, sighting and trigger control comes to nil if when the shot is released the wind shifted in the opposite direction. A tweak of the sight or maybe just the acceptance that you must have let a bad one go and where does the next shot go?
I have had this discussion countless times before and my view is still the same. The shooter that makes best use of the assets that the rules allow, will ultimately come out on top. There needs to be an acceptance that a bullet will be deflected off its line of departure by something so subtle as 1 kph of air movement.
All things being relative, Small Bore is a scaled down version of Fullbore, but if you were to be shooting Fullbore and the range was a 1000 yards, would you place out wind indicators then? Would you place out wind indicators for a 1000 yards where the target is linear to that of the the Small Bore target when you don't place them out for 50 yards? Actually the target is way more than linear. Let's say we are in the SA area and there are no trees on the range because the winds have blown them all away. The roos moved in and ate the single blade of grass and the wind just came up another 10 kph. The day is over cast and there is zero mirage. It rained earlier and there is no dust plume coming off the stop butt. You have ten shots in 17 minutes and have just been given the commence fire. Who will win and what will determine the outcome if the sighting is perfect and all the shooters are able to hold tight patterns? My guess is that it will be lady luck and how much would you pay for just one pissy little wind indicator like a strip of toilet paper on a stick?


Shooting at night at 50 yards with a rimfire is no different to what i described above.

Tony Z.

[andrewk]

that wouldn't be monarto your talking about would it tony?

sean, you and your marlin against me and my lithgow at monarto

[Bagman]

Dave,

The reality is that the Small Bore Association don't really utilise flags because there are only two that can be utilised and they certainly don't give you direction.
Perhaps your right Ol Rinso 'Ol Chum' in that we do have wind flags in Small Bore, however, the majority of shooters don't use them, including me-unless it's gusting.

Sean, an honest question from a beginner in this rimfire benchrest caper.
Why don't you use the 2 flags tht are permitted by the rules?
Surely the indication of wind strength and direct given by 2 flags is better than none?
We have the flgs set up at our range (central coast) and even to a newbie like me it assists in trying to hit the middle of the target.
Are you saying unless the wind is gusting or 'strong' it doesn't blow the projectile out of the 10ring wne aiming dead on?

Bagman

[SnipeWench]

I think we all use the wind flags and other environmental indicators, whether we like to admit to it or not. I'm sure, as skills and experience grows, the use decreases a bit, because instinct and experience says "hold off ....", or "wait...".

NSW Smallbore is affiliated with TRA, which is affiliated with ISSF, which governs the Olympic shoots, so the flag placement at 10m and 40m is determined at Olympic level.

I've come from a gliding background, and so I've learnt a few things about the wind and its indicators over the years. I was watching (and filming) some of the action at the RBA Nats a few weeks ago, and took some great sequences of the jumble of wind indicators on the range. Watching the video, I was rather confused about what the breeze was doing, because the flags made no sense to me, until I realised that the wind in the 50m range at SISC was swirling all over the place. Those conditions were tough!

It was interesting (from a pure gliding perspective) to watch the indicators as a thermal blew over the middle of the range, watching as the inflows sent flags rearing 180 degrees, and the tails lifting almost vertically, then watching the trailing inflow gust hit with ferocity making the tails horizontal, and the props on the flags go nuts.

- bec

[Curtley78]

...

Sean, an honest question from a beginner in this rimfire benchrest caper.
Why don't you use the 2 flags tht are permitted by the rules?
Surely the indication of wind strength and direct given by 2 flags is better than none?
We have the flags set up at our range (central coast) and even to a newbie like me it assists in trying to hit the middle of the target.
Are you saying unless the wind is gusting or 'strong' it doesn't blow the projectile out of the 10ring when aiming dead on?

Bagman

G'day Bagman,

In Small Bore the wind indicators only provide an indication of breeze and there are times when they will not even register, I shoot by sense of feel, if I can not feel it it on my legs, face or hands I will then look at the flags, if they are not registering, I will look for a moving shadow.

There have been numerous times for me where I have had to hold off, under or over to correct the fall of shot due to changing weather conditions and this is where I have found the quality of ammunition to be imperative.

I have found that in small bore the wind indicators are not really needed and testament of this is reflected by fact that the top three small bore clubs in the State and there A grade shooters are delivering almost perfect scores week in and week out with-out utilising the BRT style indicators.

Most nights we will not even place the 40 meter flags out.

I have shot 600's (which is over three cards in competition on many occasions). In Club from the 16 shoots this season I have shot 200.15+ on 13 occasions. 200.20 is a perfect score. I also shoot with-out a handicap.

Now of course the wind can take shots as can trigger pull or shading (incorrect scope alignment and cheek weld) however this is where the grading system reflects skill level.

Practice, Patience and Persistence.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Sean

[chris.tyne]

Sean you are a stubborn bloke arnt you,I can only hope that if you travel outside of your utopia to compete and the venue allows the use of windflags that when you dont get the results you were looking for.that you dont cry foul and want flags banned.
Sean your rebutles to this discussion are that flawed that it's not funny anymore,I actually thought you were taking the piss..............................................but your not are you.
The I can feel the wind on my face,legs,ears,arse argument has little to no merit unless the target is six inches in front of you......................but it's not.
I see that somehow you have built this up to be an us verse them type argument which it shouldnt be,Sean tell me have you ever shot a target at 100mtr with your rifle and if you did how did you go.




Regards Chris.

[Curtley78]

.....The I can feel the wind on my face,legs,ears,arse argument has little to no merit unless the target is six inches in front of you......................but it's not.
I see that somehow you have built this up to be an us verse them type argument which it should'nt be,Sean tell me have you ever shot a target at 100mtr with your rifle and if you did how did you go. Regards Chris.

Now Chris no need to get sirly.

It's not an argument based on 'Us verse Them' it's about whether or not you need flags and the other means of identifying conditions. You may have forgotten but mate...I'm a member of the SSAA too. As you would no doubt know most Small Bore Shooters have dual membership.

Yes, I have shot both of my current rim fires in excess of the 50 meter mark although most Clubs in the Small bore Association don't shoot beyond the 50 meter mark.

At Silverdale both rifles still manage inch groups at 100 with-out the use of flags

Whatever floats your boat.

Regards

Sean

[andrewk]

sean, all you seem to saying there is that your that good your bullets don't get affected by the wind so it can be ignored therefore doing away with useless flags and other indicators. i guess its cos your ammunition is that good or your range just doesn't get wind since you sometimes don't bother putting out a 40yd flag. either way your too cool for school.

bec, keep up the shooting and i think it was tony z who said this, the best shooter is also one who knows the rules and uses them to their best advantage.

[chris.tyne]

Sean I ask you,would you if given the choice prefer shooting over flags or would you stiil choose to go without.
The wind is quite helpfull and I much prefer shooting when there is a nice gentle condition that is holding than shooting in what appears to be a dead calm,without flags how would you know.If you understand, no explanation is necessary,If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.



Regards Chris.

[Curtley78]

Chris,

In small bore I am happy to continue as I have been doing. I like shooting when there is a gentle breeze, something that I can feel.

Andrew,

I do drop shots, although this season I have been shooting extremely well. I dropped one last week, which was due to being somewhat heavy handed and not due to wind.

At our last prize shoot it was horrific and my worst ever performance, it was also very windy.
My excuse was fatigue as I had gone to the shoot basically straight from work (having worked midnight shift and not having slept for about 24 hrs).

Regards

Sean

[Tony Z]

Clearly there are two completely opposing viewpoints about the real value of wind indicators. The best way to resolve this is to to just let a person shoot whichever way they wish to. Use the flags, don't use the flags, it is an individual choice. After a couple of years of competition a person will quickly realize his or her competitive spirit and adjust the thought process to suit. The problem that lies within that last statement is that there is far too often people that come from another shooting discipline that wish to convert the newly chosen one to another set of ingrained opinions. This is the best and quickest way to get a lot of people off side. Certainly there are many rules in all sorts of sporting disciplines that are just clearly dumb, but hopefully they are sorted out by a mandated and majority view of those that regularly compete. The recent change to the Sporter class rules show how this works. Sporter was dying a slow and painful death so the right minds put out a notice saying that things need to be corrected but to have a say you had to have shot the previous two National titles. This simply weeded out the occasional shooter or the never shot shooter with an opinion on everything. The choice was made and Sporter is doing well. The holder of some of the National records in this event, Paul Sullivan, virtually voted himself out of his records, but he could see the long term benefit for the sport.

When Larry Brown devised BR50 and then later wiped it off the face of the earth (he actually owned this discipline), he made a very simple and pointed statement to those who tried to set about changing rules or the thought processes of other individuals to bring about rules changes. "Don't try and change the rules to suit your thought process, change your thought process to suit the rules".
Never has there been truer words uttered amongst the worlds shooting ranks.

Tony Z.

[Curtley78]

........When Larry Brown devised BR50 and then later wiped it off the face of the earth (he actually owned this discipline), he made a very simple and pointed statement to those who tried to set about changing rules or the thought processes of other individuals to bring about rules changes. "Don't try and change the rules to suit your thought process, change your thought process to suit the rules". Never has there been truer words uttered amongst the worlds shooting ranks.

Tony Z.

G'day Tony,

That has to be one of the best quotes I have ever heard.


Regards

Sean

[a.JR]

Sean,Now let me get this right ,#1 . bugger watchin the flags,#2. grow more hair on ya legs for the wind to hit and#3. keep a close eye on the shadows,,oh oh and ya need the same ammo i use ..Thanks for the tutorial..JR..Jeff Rogers

[Bagman]

Gotta love heathly discussion!
Each to his own technique, play within the rules and may the best wind reader win on the day.

[chris.tyne]

Sean,Now let me get this right ,#1 . bugger watchin the flags,#2. grow more hair on ya legs for the wind to hit and#3. keep a close eye on the shadows,,oh oh and ya need the same ammo i use ..Thanks for the tutorial..JR..Jeff Rogers

One of the better quotes that I have seen.........................I am out of this discussion as I have learnt enough from the drip under pressure.



Regards Chris.