Electronic target cams

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Tony Z
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Tony Z »

I have to ask this question. When the Fly is on in Cantberra, are there increased reports of crop circles in the neighboring areas? Surely there must be, as some of this stuff i'm reading is not from this solar system. :mrgreen:

Let's just back up here for a moment. Chasing the last shot out in the never never to place the next shot into the 10 ring?. Mmmmm......., isn't or wasn't this the philosophy behind the 1K marked shot idea and doesn't it also show a clear flaw in your wind reading skill or the effective use of sighters? Simply, shot adjustment after the event seems to me to be far inferior to shot adjustment prior to the event.
This psychological barrier of not being able to cope without seeing shots that existed in 1K seems to be looming here now with the Fly. It is this barrier that bisects those that are often in the winners circle and those that spend a lot of time in the whingers circle. From my own perspective it seems that nothing has been learned from the 1K experience. It only succeeded in dividing the members because of change and since that time many have returned to the blind method. The architects of the scheme have yet to come down from their ivory tower and still to this day believe that it was the right thing to do. However, their own scores and group results over these past years are an ongoing testimony to how wrong they were. The statistics do not lie.


What has surprised me is that there has yet to be a mention made of grading. This is where FClass went with FS and while the idea of grading in BR is like cutting test cricket back to 3 days, it did put a lot of bums on seats where they may ordinarily not have been. I in no way support any form of separation so that there is a winner amongst the losers, but there could be a statistical argument for it if we indeed do look to the FS attendances within FClass. But sadly this rise in numbers may be the eventual nail in the coffin for FO and is somewhat of an enigma as the true ideal of the sport and where the world championships are centered around, is FO.
There is also the question of how to grade? Do you do it by last performance or by equipment? This could be another perpetual argument and if history is to be heeded from the FS model, how many minutes will it be into a match before some-one gets protested for having an unfair advantage?

What is clear about all this is that there is a grievance. By that i mean someone feels disadvantaged and is wishing to do better by reforming the rules around their equipment or distinguishing themselves from the elite groups of top flight HGs or LGs. The question is is it important to keep these people happy and cater for them or just shun them and slot them into the two current classes? Dare i say it, but is there enough justification for a factory or varmint style class to be formed when you look at the numbers turning up to the Canberra matches?

Jethro Bodine, Loose Cannon.
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Ackley Improved
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Ackley Improved »

Tony, some great points.

I still feel I am new to the 500m Fly, but I can say that I wouldn't like it changed in the world. It is simple. Have a rifle under 17lbs, or one over 17lbs. There is many combinations that work in regards to gear and components, and even to flags.

As for grades, or handicaps in Fly, I think not. You only get to the top end of the scale and hover there one way. Accurate rifle, wind reading skills, technical skills, and lastly practice! I wouldnt like any of this hard work taken away from me if I were in this group due to under performers. They need to step up, get all the ticks in the boxes!

Mr Clancy runs a 300m Fly competition which would be great for guys looking at trying the Fly format using a factory rifle. It is easier and a whole lot of fun!!!

For shits and giggles, even though not factory, but I will attempt to shoot the 6.5X47L off bipods using a 5-25X scope at one match in HG class. Would be interesting on how I will score :shock: .

Cheers
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by john mc »

Hi Tony on the topic of having shooters graded or handicaped -- how do you think it would work -- would the shooter be graded on his scores -- or would the equipment he uses be the part graded -- or does every one start in one grade and move up a step in the ladder when they win an event -- you could make every one use a factory rifle untill they have a win then graduate to custom guns -- is this what you had in mind or something quite different let us know ? john mc :rifle: :rifle:
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by SnipeWench »

john mc wrote:Hi Tony on the topic of having shooters graded or handicaped -- how do you think it would work -- would the shooter be graded on his scores -- or would the equipment he uses be the part graded -- or does every one start in one grade and move up a step in the ladder when they win an event -- you could make every one use a factory rifle untill they have a win then graduate to custom guns -- is this what you had in mind or something quite different let us know ? john mc :rifle: :rifle:
Excellent idea!

You know, I'd be keen to enter these comps initially if there was a grade for factory rifles (unmodified) + factory ammo. Leave it up to the event organiser to determine on the day whether someone's trying to circumvent the grade for a win. Would be a great introduction for people keen to shoot fly. If they then get attracted to shoot more custom rifles, they then have experience, and know what to expect. It's cheap (bring your field rifle basically), doesn't require a lot of stuff, and ammo is available. Scope powers are entirely optional!

Have the serious prizes/trophys for custom rifles/reloaders, but hand out certificates/medals for introductory grades.

I'd be keen!

- bec
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by SnipeWench »

... and yes, I must get down to Shane's event when I get my Tikka T3 .223 (when it eventually turns up...)

- bec
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Ackley Improved »

It is getting too complicated again here, and for the numbers that are turning up for the Fly is there a need for factory class?

Who can enter factory class? If I turn up with a Savage F Class rifle in 6mmBR with a 1:8 twist topped with a Nightforce, then this is a factory rifle and I am a regular fly shooter. Is this fair? Would it be unfair to stop me entering?

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chris.tyne
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by chris.tyne »

Ackley Improved wrote:It is getting too complicated again here, and for the numbers that are turning up for the Fly is there a need for factory class?

Who can enter factory class? If I turn up with a Savage F Class rifle in 6mmBR with a 1:8 twist topped with a Nightforce, then this is a factory rifle and I am a regular fly shooter. Is this fair? Would it be unfair to stop me entering?

Cheers
Trev yes security would have to remove you :lol: :lol:





Regards Chris.
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Ackley Improved »

Chris.. you know what I am trying to say, what would stop a current Fly Shooter that has some experience from bringing along a nice accurate factory rifle and shooting in that class too. Defeats the purpose of a factory class for beginners... It wouls be come super competitive in the factory class, if it were to catch on.

After thinking I really cant see the need for a factory class. You can come along and shoot the Fly now with a Factory rifle, and if you enjoy it you will have a custom rifle or semi custom by years end!

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chris.tyne
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by chris.tyne »

Trev I know exactly what you meant and yes you are right in what you say.




Regards Chris.
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Curtley78 »

Tony Z wrote:
What is clear about all this is that there is a grievance. By that i mean someone feels disadvantaged and is wishing to do better by reforming the rules around their equipment or distinguishing themselves from the elite groups of top flight HGs or LGs.....

Jethro Bodine, Loose Cannon.
You have to be joking?

The bloke who raised it 'won' the last match in Batemans Bay and has been doing very well for himself and recently purchased two very capable rifles.

He won this with-out using cameras.

It is about progression and evolution. It has nothing to do with distinguishing themselves from 'elitists'.

If people don't have the gaul to either stipulate the rules 'which don't state anything about the legality of using cameras' and have the audacity to state that they will read the Riot Act in regard to the use of such equipment yet have allowed the use of weather stations then this is nothing more then hypocrisy.

A comment was made earlier in regard to using the 60X scope and that he couldn't see the tiny holes. Pending conditions, I could see the holes using a 6mm with a Tasco 36X up until around the 3rd card.

I want to shoot prone anyway, perhaps F Class is what is needed as a means to cross-over and finally prepare myself for prone.

Regards

Sean
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Ackley Improved »

Sean Ambrose wrote:
You have to be joking?

The bloke who raised it 'won' the last match in Batemans Bay and has been doing very well for himself and recently purchased two very capable rifles.

A comment was made earlier in regard to using the 60X scope and that he couldn't see the tiny holes. Pending conditions, I could see the holes using a 6mm with a Tasco 36X up until around the 3rd card.

Regards

Sean
The bloke who raised it has done no arguing in this thread, so he isnt even in this conversation!!! He asked a question, it was answered. Others have jumped on the boat to argue for them, so leave the question asker out of it.

You have also just answered another useless point, that being the 60X scope is a advantage... I couldnt see holes in the 3rd detail at all. So, it sounds like the Tasco is up to the quality of the March... maybe the tasco should be classed as an unfair advantage too :shock:
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Curtley78 »

Ackley Improved wrote:.....You have also just answered another useless point, that being the 60X scope is a advantage... I couldnt see holes in the 3rd detail at all. So, it sounds like the Tasco is up to the quality of the March... maybe the tasco should be classed as an unfair advantage too :shock:
I recall you once making a point that your group size was suffering and so decided to purchase the March. Now, I may be wrong but to improve your group size you need to 'visually' see your fall of shot. Unless you believe in Fairies?

Of course the 60X scope is an advantage that's why you purchased it and no doubt you have greater ability at observing your fall of shot on a clearer day up until the mirage kicks in.

I am not saying that you can't use your 60 X March, I am not even saying that you can't use your March with aid of a camera. I am simply using it as an example for the need to see the 'fall of shot'.

Regards

Sean
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by a.JR »

Now, I may be wrong but to improve your group size you need to 'visually' see your fall of shot.

Sean ,yeah your wrong!

I am simply using it as an example for the need to see the 'fall of shot'.

No sure need to see the *fall of Shot* to shoot even high 50...Except for the prone events,when you go over to F/class don't forget to tell them you want to use a personal Camera.. Please come back when you do and tell us all what the f troopers said in responce ,i can't wait to hear it..JR..Jeff Rogers..ps the only thing seeing the fall of shot will get you is to knowing that you screwed up both group and score straight up ,the other guys will have to wait till the targets come back and some of those will have em in the middle

Regards

Sean[/quote]
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Rinso »

Sean,
Smallest group ever shot was done without the shooter seeing the fall of shot and only a spotting scope used by another competitor trying .. I add trying to see them ... not seeing fall of shot didnt stop the small group record being set that day and it has stood for some years now .. despite days when we could all see fall of shot ... so how much difference does it make??????
Anyway didnt you just say you were going to F Class??????
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Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Curtley78 »

Rinso wrote:....Smallest group ever shot was done without the shooter seeing the fall of shot and only a spotting scope used by another competitor trying .. I add trying to see them ... not seeing fall of shot didnt stop the small group record being set that day and it has stood for some years now .. despite days when we could all see fall of shot ... so how much difference does it make?????? Anyway didnt you just say you were going to F Class??????
Dave,

So the smallest group was shot with-out being able to see the fall of shot?

What would happen to that record if you were able to see your fall of shot?

Yes, I am going to cross-over to F Class and eventually Big Bore, like you I have always had an interest in Military rifle-unfortunately time is the issue, however, before you go claiming any kind of 'victory' this was decided long time before the debate in regard to target cameras ever evolved. It has always been my intention to go back to prone and like I have said previously I always have felt that I let myself down having not 'followed through'.

Like I told you that night at Batemans Bay, you can only shoot so many 200's in Small Bore BR before it becomes boring and besides Prone is where the skill is and F Class will be the ideal training ground to cross-over.

You have however provided the fuel to add to the ambition.

That is not to say that I will not shoot Fly as a means to perfect 'load development'.....and give you the shits.

On a happier note, I just acquired a set of Parker Hale aperture sights to clamp to that Ol Mauser :mrgreen:

Regards

Sean
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