tell them to Stick it where it fits! with our wallets

[Trev]

http://www.shopbot.com.au/default.asp?k ... ion=search

If you want you can fill your PC with OEM stuff for a really really good price. Some will even sell you the stuff without hardware lol.

Also, Keith is correct, (cant believe I said that) dont upgrade, for some reason upgrades ALWAYS have issues, no idea why, they just do.

Plus in shopbot, check the price of the OEM compared to the ugrade.

[kjd]

http://www.shopbot.com.au/default.asp?k ... ion=search

If you want you can fill your PC with OEM stuff for a really really good price. Some will even sell you the stuff without hardware lol.

Also, Keith is correct, (cant believe I said that) dont upgrade, for some reason upgrades ALWAYS have issues, no idea why, they just do.

Plus in shopbot, check the price of the OEM compared to the ugrade.

Hey Trev,

Just because we don't see eye to eye on some issues does not mean we have to disagree with everything one another says nor do we have to hate each other. We have different philosophies regarding one thing but as I said before: for the most part I enjoy your posts and opinions. I especially regard your reviews quite highly.

[cj7hawk]

Over the past couple of months on this site ive seen members tell
of great sales in optics in the USA and then say that new government policy in the USA has changed to refusal in dealing offshore.
WHY USA??????

It's all to do with ITAR... Some of the new rules are even crazier... Did you know that if you visit a friend in the US and they even let you look through their scope, they can go to jail!

The amazing thing is that our government is pandering to US interests and not standing up to them and saying "Fix it or we won't support you" but the AU government hasn't got the balls to do that.

The problem is foreigners, including ones who are now Australian citizens. When we originally agreed to the treaty supporting ITAR, the US promised Australia (as an Ally along with the UK) would be exempt. However because we have anti-discrimination laws, the US refuses to ratify the exemption... All because, for example, someone who might have been born in Vietnam came to Australia 30 years ago when they were 2 years old and it's not legal to discriminate against them... I'm not making this up - See http://www.defence.gov.au/strategy/deco ... dustry.pdf

So what does the Aussie government do? It decides it's OK to discriminate against anyone not actually born here so long as it's for the US government's sake.

So don't go blaming the Yanks or their companies - it's not their fault - It's the Australian Government's fault for not standing up to the US government about this.

I feel kind of sorry for the US companies... They are giving people some ridiculous fines... One woman got fined and jailed just for sending an ACOG telescopic sight to her boyfriend. It's just an optical sight and isn't even classified technology... but the US is completely xenophobic about this.

So yeah, don't go blaming the average US company - it's not their fault... Most sellers are so afraid of fines now that they won't sell anything anywhere outside of the US, even if it's still legal under ITAR ( Gen1 night vision is a good example. Most places that sell this say "No Exports" just to comply, but it's perfectly legal to export under ITAR as is some Gen2 ).

David

[Rath]

Mate what has ITAR got to do with purchasing a scope from the USA? I have purchased nearly all my scopes from the states without any problems.

[cj7hawk]

It shouldn't have anything to do with it but ITAR covers optical weapons scopes too. What I've started to notice is that you can't get anything from some sellers in the US now... The US State department is cracking down on those exporting in contravention on this US law and it has such ridiculous fines and such poor definition of what is and isn't covered that the businesses are just refusing to deal with foreign sales.

Don't expect to keep purchasing scopes from the US unless the place you're buying from has a license to export and is familiar with ITAR.

eg, http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/333

This isn't a military scope but it can be fitted to a military weapon that has a weaver rail. They are prosecuting the person that exported it now.

The US Government has banned the sale of all "Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications"

But it doesn't say what makes a riflescope a "Military specification" - it seems that something as simple as being adaptable to ANY military rifle (eg, Weaver mounts) makes a rifle "Manufactured to military specifications".

Yes, it is stupid and vague, but the US government is prosecuting it's own citizens over sending something like a simple riflescope overseas.

US companies are scared and most have no idea what is included under ITAR and what is not. Because of this, they simply won't deal with people outside of the US for their own safety.

These laws have been in place for half a decade but they are only recently being enforced and the US state department is cracking down... And it's having a chilling effect on US exporters.

David

[GriMo]

OEM's can only be legally sold by a OEM System builder when sold as a complete system or a certain level of hardware.

Grimo, you can had or change your hardware as many times as you like with all Microsoft applications. What you have is a limit on the number of times you can install and use your product key. Vista has a 6 installation limit, so as soon as you try and register online the 7th time it will fail. But that still doesnt stop you from registering again, you just have to call 1800 and get another product key. You are not tied to the initial machine either, you can install it on 30 different machines, providing it is installed on only one machine at a time.

Well, ill agree the New WAT system is better then WGA but will still cause problems and be a pita for someone who changes hardware often. As for upgrading rather then a full re-install, it may be well and good for those who like to play on the PC but for your average home user, what do you think they will follow? when faced with an option that says ( paraphrasing) format and loose everything

OR

Upgrade and keep your my documents, pictures, videos etc etc what would "Mum and Dad" users go for?

http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb;e ... 5&x=10&y=9 - kind of explains the problems with a motherboard upgrade, and as i cant find a specific 7 version it probably still applies.

OEM versions of almost anything piss me off due to various limitations you find as you go. Can be as cheap and cheerful as Nero or can come down to an entire OS, as far as im concerned OEM liscences are fine if you buy a dell, toshiba etc with it pre-installed. If i outlay cash for software i expect a full version, and wont buy anything less.

[kjd]

OEM's can only be legally sold by a OEM System builder when sold as a complete system or a certain level of hardware.

Grimo, you can had or change your hardware as many times as you like with all Microsoft applications. What you have is a limit on the number of times you can install and use your product key. Vista has a 6 installation limit, so as soon as you try and register online the 7th time it will fail. But that still doesnt stop you from registering again, you just have to call 1800 and get another product key. You are not tied to the initial machine either, you can install it on 30 different machines, providing it is installed on only one machine at a time.

Well, ill agree the New WAT system is better then WGA but will still cause problems and be a pita for someone who changes hardware often. As for upgrading rather then a full re-install, it may be well and good for those who like to play on the PC but for your average home user, what do you think they will follow? when faced with an option that says ( paraphrasing) format and loose everything

OR

Upgrade and keep your my documents, pictures, videos etc etc what would "Mum and Dad" users go for?

http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=kb;e ... 5&x=10&y=9 - kind of explains the problems with a motherboard upgrade, and as i cant find a specific 7 version it probably still applies.

OEM versions of almost anything piss me off due to various limitations you find as you go. Can be as cheap and cheerful as Nero or can come down to an entire OS, as far as im concerned OEM liscences are fine if you buy a dell, toshiba etc with it pre-installed. If i outlay cash for software i expect a full version, and wont buy anything less.

Or buy anything at all..... hahaha.

I have to say I disagree with you on the home user thing Sam,

There aren't many people out there that are just average users that would even upgrade OS. Non-PC enthusiasts usually upgrade OS when they get another computer (usually from harvey norman). It would be a very very tiny percentage of mums and dads that would actually go to the shops and buy a retail box of Windows and use it to upgrade. In fact, Retail sales of both upgrade and full versions of Windows are a very minor part of Window's sales. Most of the copies MS sells to consumers are OEM with a new PC.

I would rather pay the $200 for an OEM version and deal/work around the limitations then pay the $4-500 for the full version of Windows. Though as you know, with you & I this conversation is rather redundant.

[Rath]

I didn't know that people still paid for softwear in this day and age.... I guess it helps to have a computer scientist in the family

[Trev]

Keith

I dont actually hate you lol.

Just reckon your so wrong on your pricing views.

[r_j_t1982]

It shouldn't have anything to do with it but ITAR covers optical weapons scopes too. What I've started to notice is that you can't get anything from some sellers in the US now... The US State department is cracking down on those exporting in contravention on this US law and it has such ridiculous fines and such poor definition of what is and isn't covered that the businesses are just refusing to deal with foreign sales.

Don't expect to keep purchasing scopes from the US unless the place you're buying from has a license to export and is familiar with ITAR.

eg, http://www.exportlawblog.com/archives/333

This isn't a military scope but it can be fitted to a military weapon that has a weaver rail. They are prosecuting the person that exported it now.

The US Government has banned the sale of all "Riflescopes manufactured to military specifications"

But it doesn't say what makes a riflescope a "Military specification" - it seems that something as simple as being adaptable to ANY military rifle (eg, Weaver mounts) makes a rifle "Manufactured to military specifications".

Yes, it is stupid and vague, but the US government is prosecuting it's own citizens over sending something like a simple riflescope overseas.

US companies are scared and most have no idea what is included under ITAR and what is not. Because of this, they simply won't deal with people outside of the US for their own safety.

These laws have been in place for half a decade but they are only recently being enforced and the US state department is cracking down... And it's having a chilling effect on US exporters.

David

This person/group wasn't exporting 1 scope for personal uses, this was 100 (one hundred) scopes of a type that was primarily designed and marketed to military/law enforcement agencies for tactical use, not for hunters sniping bunnies or stalking deer. And let's face it Indonesia isn't the most trusted country in the South East Asian region, being in the middle of a regional arms race doesnt help them either.

Now aside from the fact that there isnt much hunting in Indonesia, consider the price of these items. There is no way that they are at all affordable in the Indo civilian market place. Another concern in this matter would be the possibilty of reverse engineering.

also, lifted directly from the loopy website:

CQ/T State License Warning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CQ/T® riflescope, parts, and accessories fall under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of State. Unless required State Department license is obtained, this product is for sale in the U.S.A. only.

[cj7hawk]

This person/group wasn't exporting 1 scope for personal uses, this was 100 (one hundred) scopes of a type that was primarily designed and marketed to military/law enforcement agencies for tactical use, not for hunters sniping bunnies or stalking deer. And let's face it Indonesia isn't the most trusted country in the South East Asian region, being in the middle of a regional arms race doesnt help them either.

Now aside from the fact that there isnt much hunting in Indonesia, consider the price of these items. There is no way that they are at all affordable in the Indo civilian market place. Another concern in this matter would be the possibilty of reverse engineering.

also, lifted directly from the loopy website:

CQ/T State License Warning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CQ/T® riflescope, parts, and accessories fall under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Department of State. Unless required State Department license is obtained, this product is for sale in the U.S.A. only.

And none of that is disputed, except you're missing several major points.

* The US supplies military devices to Indonesia. Weapons and support equipment. Indonesia is not considered a threat to the US. It's not a proscribed country.
* We're just talking about an optical scope of high quality here - it's not even a night scope or thermal imager. Nothing advanced. And it wasn't the military model he was charged with exporting either.
* You can buy these scopes in Australia and export them - They are NOT a restricted item here. AT ALL (yet).
* None of this equipment is classified - You can buy it all off the shelf in the US.

You seem to be under the impression that the US state department is using common sense and only applying these laws to go after people who are selling military
hardware overseas, but they are targetting individuals and small businesses. If you read the US forums you will find similar examples discussed extensively.

The effect is that sellers don't know what is classified and what is not. There is no list. If they sell an item and someone at a later date decides that it is classified then the seller/exporter is open to prosecution.

Some businesses will be able to afford the legal fees to determine what is exportable and what is not. Others are simply playing it safe and saying "No Exports."

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=18&t=294308

This is mainly referring to Night Vision devices... But the issue here is even looking through them is now a crime in the US if you're not a US citizen. I can't express how ridiculous that is but the people who sell this stuff are too afraid of litigation and have been threatened, so they simply shut up the export shop.

While it doesn't stop all exporters, it does reduce the number who you can buy from and this is likely to result in a slow increase in prices for any US made scopes...

David