Electronic target cams

Benchrest, F-class, Metallic Silhouette, Handgun Shooting and anything other form of target shooting!
john mc
.17 HMR
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:14 pm
Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x47
Location: central coastal queensland

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by john mc »

Hi folks i first got interested in target cams after reading about them on the 6mmBr.com forum
the yanks had a good old barney about the pro's and con's of the use of these cams
their reasons are wery much the same as the ones brought up by our forum users
it seems like steel splash plates and hard targets are frowned upon at many ranges
and the target cams are a way for these ranges to keep their members shooting a favourite event
I think this thread is great it gives our forum members a chance to give an opinion on a controvertial
subject --- be it right or be it wrong - - its great to read
john mc :rifle:
tiger
New Member
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:40 pm
Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x55AI
Location: Canberra

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by tiger »

Yee Ha People!!!

This has been VERY entertaining reading, I think we know where Rinso stands!

Somebody got a web address for the $90 product??? Would at least like to be informed about it.

Personally, it's a bit like the Peeps Vs Scopes debate in NRAA shooting circles, last time I checked, the
scope didn't read the wind any better for you than the peeps.....regardless of what the non-scope
shooters think about the subject.

If I can see the result of my shots instantaneously that would be cool....

Rule 3, Any scope power including spotting scopes....Hmmm, a two part spotting scope, transmitter
and receiver...but the lenses are separated by air and RF, not nitrogen, and 490m of it....

Boys, if we are to make a decision regarding the matter, it won't be here, and slagging each other off
won't fix it, sooner or later somebody will turn up with one on the line, then we'll have an adjudication
of it on the day. Whoever brings it should probably also bring a spotting scope, it could go either way...

Cheers.

Dave Groves.
Brendan

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Brendan »

GEEEZZZZ I want one just to use when sighting in my rifles, it would really be helpfull to not have to walk 200m, 300, 400, 500 to check my target, even a spotting scope is hard to read out at that distance and you wouldn't have to keep taking glasses off to look thru the spotting scope because when you screw the magnification up you have to just about put your eye ball in the scope to see anything.

I'm getting into metal sill and checking hits at diff ranges accurately with some of these would turn 4 days work into an enjoyable couple of hours.
User avatar
GriMo
Site Admin
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:36 pm
Favourite Cartridge: 17 rem
Contact:

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by GriMo »

Ive been sitting back and just havign a read of this debate and must admit it turned out just how i figured it would. everyone has a view and thats awesome. For me fly is pretty much the only competition that i have any real interest in, and its because its so damn simple. Bring what you own, shoot it and have a good time. All this BS debating over a different piece of equiptment in my eyes takes it away from the fun, simple enjoyable sport it was introduced as. as far as i can see, if you have a suitable camera, bring it. I cant understand how being able to see the last 2 metres before the target is going to effect your performance when a projectile has travelled 498 before it gets there.

Keep it simple, Keep it fun. My $0.02
a.JR
6mm Dasher
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:24 am
Favourite Cartridge: 30cal

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by a.JR »

I still say no to cameras, After many years of running Fly Matchs (1993) the biggest draw back i see to new competitors actually sitting down to shoot a match is that they are intimidated by the equipment .. It's either 1st up or after their initial go that they don't come back ,as said cameras won't help you win but is another nail in the coffin in getting new competitors to the line .. If you want to see your shots land all the time then go shoot the prone matchs or the 100 yd stuff and stop trying to change my sport to suit yaself..Fuck me i'm sick of this shit..JR..Jeff Rogers.. if you want a lesson in stupidity ,bring your 60x March to Nth QLD in January and shoot at a Fly Target, lots of luck
Last edited by a.JR on Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ackley Improved
6mm Dasher
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: Albury

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Ackley Improved »

AJR

No need to go to NT for the Fly, the Bay had enough mirage.

I see a camera as a aid to stop shooting. If a shot doesnt go where you expect, and you have sighters left.. well it speaks for itself. Sure it wont make the shots go where you want, but it would have to help your score to some degree when the holes arnt seen.

How I see it, once the first is used, the line will be full of them. So, if you are not scoring high now, wait till the good shooters get them!

So far I have found when a March can see them, so can the Nightforce. What happens between the scope and the target dictates what is seen, not the scope!

Still, I will get a camera system for load development and practice.

Cheers
Aussie_bob
New Member
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:26 pm
Favourite Cartridge: 30BR
Contact:

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Aussie_bob »

Well useing a camera system for 1000 yard where you haventy got Butts or splash plates is the only way to go.
Also the rules can be written so that they are turned off after the sighter period.
But another use is when you stake out a waterhole or set up a bait for vermin and sit on a hill 4 or 5 hundred meters away when the vermin turn up you can see where they are with out haveing to be looking through the scope all the time and if you set it up at night at 200m with the infrared camera you can be waiting and turn on the spotty and bang.
When scopes were first used everyone jacked up over it especialy in Bigbore circles now most are coming across to F-Class.
Its called progress like useing computers for ballistics etc and getting on here to bitch about useing cameras.
User avatar
albow
.257 Roberts
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:40 am
Location: Nth Queensland

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by albow »

Hey Bob

How you been going? Are you going to bring your 30BR up and shoot the last couple of LR matches on the 7th and 8th?
Tony Z
.270 Winchester
Posts: 1366
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:29 pm

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Tony Z »

OK, so we have a bit of a stalemate with the target cams, let's bring in another bit of technology that is looking to make its way into the US LR game. Electronic windflags, or wind stations that relay information back to a central display sitting beside the shooter on the bench. How do you all feel about that sort of technology? The wind probe has existed for some time now and many of us have shot with them as they are visible to all and are accurate and useful to a point. But individual electronic readouts to a solitary shooter, how do we feel about that? Now these things work in two ways, wind speed in mph and precise wind direction. Two or maybe three of these stations can be placed at varying distances out from the firing line all returning constant feed information. No doubt these things could be refined to show go, nogo, green, red etc and become the shooting version of what the Deadenbare was to drag racing before it was banned.
I have such a station myself where i had the restrictive timer limit bypassed to be constant readout. I have had it for years now and have never used it in any form of competition, but through some testing with a rimfire as a test against conventional windflags, i will take the electronic device straight up now without any reservation. With time and practice i am sure you could gain a huge edge over any current wind flags in use. Most current windflags are next to useless when the wind velocity is more than 15 knots and the gap between 10 and 15 knots is very difficult to accurately gauge. This is where the electronic unit really shines. At slower wind speeds the two are much of a muchness but at the higher wind velocity all you do is watch the direction and speed on the readout, pull the trigger when they coincide to what you want and the group forms like it should. Now i know this was a rimfire at close range and LR is something altogether different, but i can see an edge here. Forget the cams, these wind stations could be a very real and quite large advantage if put into use during competition.

Now i see it mentioned that the 10 rules on the Fly target are our guideline, yet windflags are used at every Fly match i have ever attended, but nowhere on those ten rules does it mention or define a windflag, or target cams to be used or not used for that matter? I have also seen mentioned on a few posts the term "an unfair advantage". This term seems to have made its way over from the FClass ranks where it can be used to protest a perceived advantage over the loosers, assuming you just won with some brilliant technological breakthrough. This term has no place in BR or any other shooting form, so before we shoot down any electronic device used, let's have a look at what is used in the shooting ranks around the world now. There are many shooters using weather stations to determine DA so loads can be adjusted during the course of the day. Wind velocity meters are used in High Power matches in the US. Sure the weather stations aren't in front of the firing point, which by the way would be useless as they need to be visible while you are reloading, but nevertheless they are present now and could be seen as an unfair advantage by some. So let's be careful about condemning something while other electronic devices are already in use. The argument that a DA meter has no direct feedback and you still have to shoot your group or score is in my view not valid as a change of 20 points of humidity is going to really screw around with your load, and eventually your groups, so having knowledge to counter that can only come from a DA meter which you have in front of you while someone else has no idea of any change at all.

I do not have a problem with any technology, and the target cams i do see as a bonus for ranges for SIGHTING purposes only. But to think that they are an advantage to scoring is misguided in my view. So i personally cannot see the cost justifying a real gain when 20 something firing points would have to be catered for at a range like Canberra, but where there is an already existing working system of sighting. But having said that, the use of electronic wind devices is another thing altogether. This is a real gain that a cam will never deliver and as such should need more attention as the likelihood of this sort of stuff appearing is very real as they are available now in some very simple forms like basic weather stations to some rather more expensive units that are very accurate. Some of the marine units are just absolutely brilliant bits of kit. Really if you know the ranges around the country well enough, one or two wind stations placed where they are most likely to give useful feedback is probably all that is needed. Townsville would most likely only require one in the gully when shooting Fly and that would be it. Get that part of the range right and the rest falls into place. Well most times. :mrgreen:

Jethro Bodine Loose Cannon.
User avatar
Curtley78
Political Advisor/Activist
Posts: 1170
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 am
Favourite Cartridge: 7mm08 AI
Location: Helensburgh 'Dixie'

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by Curtley78 »

Tony Z wrote:OK, so we have a bit of a stalemate with the target cams, let's bring in another bit of technology that is looking to make its way into the US LR game. Electronic windflags, or wind stations that relay information back to a central display sitting beside the shooter on the bench. How do you all feel about that sort of technology? The wind probe has existed for some time now and many of us have shot with them as they are visible to all and are accurate and useful to a point. But individual electronic readouts to a solitary shooter, how do we feel about that......Jethro Bodine Loose Cannon.
G'day Tony,

I have meant to post a lengthy response unfortunately I have been working midnight shift and have been suffering with broken sleep and insomnia.

I was only also recently thinking about the electronic weather stations and as to whether one would be disputed for using one, one could even ask as to whether a competitor using the Casio style of watch that provides the same functions could be disputed or someone using a Kestrel?

I know of two shooters that use these and it has never been disputed, one in particular was monitoring barometric air pressure, humidity, wind speed and temperature via a wireless unit.

No doubt there are different rules for different fools.

To answer the question you asked earlier in regard to how a target camera would improve the individuals performance, I believe it would as it would enable the shooter to hopefully see the fall of his shot printed on the target when the mirage is on the boil, one would still be in effect 'shooting blind' as no one can ever effectively place a shot through a hovering and distorting mirage and essentially determine it's placement.

Although with the camera, you may be able to hold off or hold over and use the remaining 4 rounds to score. It will be an interesting experiment.

It is a good point that you have raised with the electronic wind flags and will no doubt cause some angst and hyper tension amongst a few of the self professed traditional style of shooters.

Personally, I think the rules need be amended and clarified in order to prevent future disputes.

Out of interest, that stock to suit the Bruno that you sold Rinso, do you have contact details for the manufacturer as I would like to purchase one if possible?

Regards

Sean
harold
New Member
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:47 am
Favourite Cartridge: n/a

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by harold »

Cams or no cams doesn't really matter, eg: Procal this year was bad conditions, every shot during the match could be seen for placment for the next shot but there were plenty of clean cards or low scores on the day, Sean your 2nd target with a score of 5 and your 3rd target with the score of 12 seeing that you must have seen your placements of shots how will the cams help you there with your scores, you have 3 sighters for shot placment as every one else, there was no mirage on that day, plenty wind, dust, rain and sleet. If people need eyes close to the target good luck it's not going to be safe for your guide dogs up there near the targets, maybe the cams can help at times but not all the times, just remember that the flags and mirage are ther to tell you something, read it and learn, you can't read it correctly every time, the fun of shooting 500metres.


Regards
Harold
User avatar
frakka
22-250 Remington
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:43 am
Favourite Cartridge: 223 Rem
Location: Central Wheat Belt WA

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by frakka »

I don't have a horse in this race but I recall these same arguments when electronic compasses, linked electronics, exotic fibres etc were first on the market and introduced into one design yacht racing. Same scenario, they showed up loopholes in the rules but when finally accepted (or not) it made no difference to results. Everyone has access to the same equipment but it's always intangible things like talent, hard work and perseverance that sorts out the leader board…………

It’s pretty apt this topic came up the same week the CSIRO scientist was lauded for his work in establishing wifi technology.
SnipeWench
.17 HMR
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:46 pm
Favourite Cartridge: .50cal
Location: Sydney

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by SnipeWench »

I'm a complete outsider to this, but have an interest in trying out 500m fly one day.

That was until I saw a picture of the firing line from the event down at Batemans Bay, and noticed:

* _lots_ of custom benchrest rifles;
* massive scopes; and
* exotic benchrests.

Do I need all that in order to _compete_ let alone have a remote chance of winning? Sure there are some freaks in this sport, like every sport, who have that natural ability to shoot the eye off a needle at 1000yds w/ iron sights, but I'm not one of them, so I would have to rely on my equipment as much as my limited skills in order to not come last (<-- always my goal).

Now you wanna add cameras and electronic flags!

Where does the barrier to competing (aka the money pit) stop? Why get into a technology race? If I need those in order to simply compete, scratch that idea, I'll do another rifle sport which doesn't require such electronic wizardry. The tenet of Fly Shooting dies at that point, doesn't it? Fly isn't going to attract shooters, simply due to high barriers of entry.

I agree that electronic _targets_ are the way of the future. Get them, and you won't need target cameras - the video output shows the fall of shot on the screen for you.

I thought Fly was about fun? Keep it simple.

- bec
a.JR
6mm Dasher
Posts: 1033
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:24 am
Favourite Cartridge: 30cal

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by a.JR »

Sean , With your statement below you seem to me to be saying that in the mirage affected shoots that the camera's will help But still no one can effectively place a shot in the right spot anyhow, i'm afraid i don't get what your saying..In my experiance there is a way to shoot bad mirage days but it is not going to come to you after a couple of matchs with your dad's RUGER 30.06..It takes a great gun with great bullets and an experianced person behind the trigger and the only way to get that is to do the hard yards..In 2007 i shot a match on my home range with some of the worst mirage i have seen , i ended with a personal best of 253.5 and the only thing you could see on that last target was the red V on a yellow swimming mess .the group was 1.62ins /58.1..It can be done the conventional way but IMO if electronics are allowed then i believe there will be a drop off in shooters ..JR..Jeff Rogers..pic of target

No doubt there are different rules for different fools.

To answer the question you asked earlier in regard to how a target camera would improve the individuals performance, I believe it would as it would enable the shooter to hopefully see the fall of his shot printed on the target when the mirage is on the boil, one would still be in effect 'shooting blind' as no one can ever effectively place a shot through a hovering and distorting mirage and essentially determine it's placement.



Regards

Sean[/quote]
IMG_0816 (Medium).JPG
User avatar
stinkitup
.338 Lapua Magnum
Posts: 3217
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x55
Location: Lower Hunter Valley

Re: Electronic target cams

Post by stinkitup »

SnipeWench wrote:I'm a complete outsider to this, but have an interest in trying out 500m fly one day.

That was until I saw a picture of the firing line from the event down at Batemans Bay, and noticed:

* _lots_ of custom benchrest rifles;
* massive scopes; and
* exotic benchrests.

Do I need all that in order to _compete_ let alone have a remote chance of winning? Sure there are some freaks in this sport, like every sport, who have that natural ability to shoot the eye off a needle at 1000yds w/ iron sights, but I'm not one of them, so I would have to rely on my equipment as much as my limited skills in order to not come last (<-- always my goal).

Now you wanna add cameras and electronic flags!

Where does the barrier to competing (aka the money pit) stop? Why get into a technology race? If I need those in order to simply compete, scratch that idea, I'll do another rifle sport which doesn't require such electronic wizardry. The tenet of Fly Shooting dies at that point, doesn't it? Fly isn't going to attract shooters, simply due to high barriers of entry.

I agree that electronic _targets_ are the way of the future. Get them, and you won't need target cameras - the video output shows the fall of shot on the screen for you.

I thought Fly was about fun? Keep it simple.

- bec

Bec Fly is fun even with a varmint/hunting rifle. No your not likely to win at 500m with it against some of the target based rifles but if you go and have goals you want to achieve group size, score etc then its great fun. And no I don't believe the you need the best rifle around but when shooting at comps like Canberra it is highly competitive.

My first fly I used my old ex military sporterised mauser 6.5x55 with its old tasco 3-9 I couldn't see the scoring rings just the v and was guessing but I got to see what the old girl was capable off and burn some powder which is always pleasing.


As far as Camera's and other gadgets to help the person shooting still has to compute this all and shoot high scores and tight groups all day to win a match. You can have the 4K rifle 2-3K Scope and all this stuff and still not get place. My only thought where a camera might be usefull is for someone who doesn't have some one spotting for them on days that they are likely to get blown completley of target/splash you may be able to spot these clearer for yourself. But at the end of the day you miss read it in the first place so it may not help other than a learning aid to understanding whats going on.




JR Thats some top shooting!
Post Reply