Hi guys / girls.
I recently acquired new, this Stoeger X20 break action air rifle (.177) and mounted a Olivon 2-7 x 32AO on it. The question i have is what is the average or acceptable level of accuracy for a set up like this?
I'm relatively new to the shooting sports and although i cannot fault my own technique, it doesn't mean im not the reason for these results!
I sighted the rifle in to the best of my ability and set out shooting some groups. I was less than impressed by the results.
The distance was ~13M and the pellets used were Beeman Silverjets. I have yet to try some different ammo.
Barrel was cleaned and had 40 odd pellets through it before i began trying for some real groups. I had shot around 200 pellets (from new) before today also.
I shot a total of 12 targets, 5 shot groups in each.
Best group = 20mm @ 13M
Worst group = 52mm @ 13M
Average for groups ~33mm @ 13M (~10MOA if my maths is correct...)
If i had chosen some 3 shot groups then the best would have been ~6mm. It seemed that i would shoot 3 or 4 nice tight shots then i would get a couple of flyers; cross wind conditions would have been less that 1 m/s and i was shooting in my backyard which is fairly secluded and protected from all sides. So i am confident that these groups were a result of either my amateur shooting ability and or the rifle itself... Having said that i can usually shoot ~3.5 inch groups @ 300M on any given day at the range with my mates Weatherby Vanguard (.270Win) so im inclined to believe that its the rifle, especially at 13M!
I was shooting off of leather sand bags (pictured) on a outdoor setting.
I tried winding up to 7 power and back down to 2 power without any noticeable difference in point of impact. I set it on 4 power for the groups testing.
The scope was done up TIGHT, is rated for air gun use and shock proof so im sure thats not whats giving me these split groups.
I removed the open sights as they would blur the sight picture at higher magnifications and i had a tendancy to shoot slightly higher or lower to try and 'get my eye over/under' the front sight. Groups improved moderately after these were removed.
I know that the Stoeger is no competition air rifle, and that it would be ridiculous to expect the same kind of performance from a $500 set up as a 2, 3, $4000 odd competition gun but just what sort of accuracy should one expect from these Stoeger, Gamo, Norica, type "slug guns"?
The manufacturers claim its capable of 1200 FPS although im assuming this is under strict conditions with some special alloy pellets or just advertising hype as i believe that it would be around 1000 FPS as theres no supersonic crack when you let one fly.
Having said all that im not bagging the X20, its got plenty of killing power for pigeons and the like. Im sure it would be a good short range bunny gun too...
The only gripe i really have about it is the trigger. ITS SHITE, its made of crappy plastic. It creeps, overtravels a fair bit and is rough as guts, not smooth at all.
Still, it feels good in your hands and is fun for shooting empty beer cans and rotten fruit when your out camping!!!
What do y'all think? Did i get a dud rifle / scope? Or is it something else maybe, like my technique? Or is as accurate as these cheap "slug guns" get?
Cheers,
Hawk
Acceptable accuracy?
Acceptable accuracy?
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RayG
- 22-250 Remington
- Posts: 594
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:10 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 375H&H
- Location: Adelaide, S.A.
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
[Hawkeye77 quote]
I was shooting off of leather sand bags (pictured) on a outdoor setting.
The manufacturers claim its capable of 1200 FPS although im assuming this is under strict conditions with some special alloy pellets or just advertising hype as i believe that it would be around 1000 FPS as theres no supersonic crack when you let one fly.
Hi Hawkeye,
The Stoeger is an airgun that is in the "You get what you pay for" market level. So the over the top claims of 1000-1200FPS are just hot air.
The gun will probably shoot 900 FPS with a very light pellet but not much more.
It also does not pay to shoot a Spring powered airgun on a solid rest even sand bags when shooting,its recoil is such that the gun will jump all over the place hence bad groups.
Best way to shoot the Stoeger from a rest is to (assuming you are right handed) rest the fore end of the gun in the flat of you open left hand on the sandbag and don't close your fingers around the stock,then gently mount the gun to your shoulder and hold it lightly to get your sight picture and squeeze off the shot,keep the gun steady on your shoulder and Follow Through ( This means hold your sight picture until the recoil has stopped).
Try to repeat the firing style with every rested shot and see how your groups go. they should improve a tad. For free handed shots do what you normally do and it should shoot reasonably well within its limits.
If you get to like airgunning save up for a more upmarket gun.
cheers Ray.
I was shooting off of leather sand bags (pictured) on a outdoor setting.
The manufacturers claim its capable of 1200 FPS although im assuming this is under strict conditions with some special alloy pellets or just advertising hype as i believe that it would be around 1000 FPS as theres no supersonic crack when you let one fly.
Hi Hawkeye,
The Stoeger is an airgun that is in the "You get what you pay for" market level. So the over the top claims of 1000-1200FPS are just hot air.
The gun will probably shoot 900 FPS with a very light pellet but not much more.
It also does not pay to shoot a Spring powered airgun on a solid rest even sand bags when shooting,its recoil is such that the gun will jump all over the place hence bad groups.
Best way to shoot the Stoeger from a rest is to (assuming you are right handed) rest the fore end of the gun in the flat of you open left hand on the sandbag and don't close your fingers around the stock,then gently mount the gun to your shoulder and hold it lightly to get your sight picture and squeeze off the shot,keep the gun steady on your shoulder and Follow Through ( This means hold your sight picture until the recoil has stopped).
Try to repeat the firing style with every rested shot and see how your groups go. they should improve a tad. For free handed shots do what you normally do and it should shoot reasonably well within its limits.
If you get to like airgunning save up for a more upmarket gun.
cheers Ray.
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
I'd second what RayG stated. Dont shoot off a sandbag rest and make sure you follow through. I hold my air-rifles very lightly and let them jump as they see fit, I just try to introduce some level of consistency to it. I'd also use a nice quality RN pellet in your air-rifle, from memory those Beeman pellets are pointed aren't they? I've never gotten 'best' and consistent accuracy from a pointed pellet.
One of my funniest 'on the range' moments was shooting my HW-80 using the loose grip described by RayG, then settling behind the 458Lott and without realising, letting off a shot with the same loose grip. Kind of woke me up real fast!
Cheers...
Con
One of my funniest 'on the range' moments was shooting my HW-80 using the loose grip described by RayG, then settling behind the 458Lott and without realising, letting off a shot with the same loose grip. Kind of woke me up real fast!
Cheers...
Con
-
daisy
- .308 Winchester
- Posts: 1586
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:31 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 7-08
- Location: Far south coast NSW
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Here's some tips that I've kept from 1992. I hope that it is of some help. It's by a yank called Russ Best who tuned airguns for a living for a while .
Daisy
Russ B
Thu Jan 10 '02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is Tim. Here's an article I wrote on Hold Sensitivity.
Many shooters using a spring gun for the first time complain they cannot
get
good groups with their guns. Rarely is this a problem with the gun.
There have been many discussions amongst airgunners about Hold
Sensitivity. What
is hold sensitivity? What guns are hold sensitive? How do I deal with a
hold
sensitive rifle? What can be done to reduce hold sensitivity? Let's look
at a
couple generalities, then get down to specifics.
Generally, guns that use pre-compressed gasses to develop power are not
what
we'd call hold sensitive. These include CO2,pump pneumatics and
pre-charged
pneumatics(PCP). Spring guns are nearly always more hold sensitive than
the
above mentioned types because of their recoilling nature. The moving
mechanical
mass jolts the gun when fired. Keeping the gun pointed at the desired
target,
while the pellet moves down the barrel is of utmost importance.
With a spring powered gun, the shooter must develop a VERY consistent
method of
shooting. This method has been called the "Artillery Hold" by Tom
Gaylord, and
the "Howitzer Hold" by Larry Durham. No matter which name you choose, it
amounts
to pretty much the same style of shooting. Another term used in
conjunction with
these is "follow through", which really has nothing to do with the way
the gun
is held prior to the trigger being pulled. Follow Through is what you do
after
the sear is released, and is only part of the Howitzer Hold technique.
The technique itself involves having minimal contact with your gun while
aiming
abd shooting. This means you don't GRIP the forestock, but rather you
let it
just lay on top of your hand. The finger grooves and fancy checkering on
spring
airguns is more of a styling carryover from firearms, and doesn't serve
much
purpose when firing a springer. This also means you rest your gun on
your hand
at the same point on the forestock every time. Champion airgunner Nick
Jenkinson
wrote an article on choosing the best contact point for your gun,
finding that
it's usually located at some point ranging from 2 to 7 inches in front
of your
trigger guard. Wherever your "sweetspot" is, use it consistently.
Changing from
one contact point to another, can alter your point of impact.
The next thing to watch is your grip on the rifles pistol grip. I rarely
wrap my
thumb around the grip, but instead- just barely touch the back of the
pistol
grip. Some shooters like to point their thumb up the back of the grip,
thumbtip
aiming at the end cap of the receiver tube. The fingers wrapping around
the grip
should just have very light contact with the gun. I generally only allow
the two
centermost fingers to control the grip- more to keep the gun from
leaning off
the vertical plane than anything else.
Another important point is to just use the pad of your fingertip on the
trigger.
Don't wrap the first finger joint around the trigger blade. When
squeezing off
the shot, apply no side pressure to the trigger blade - just ease it
straight
back towards the heel of your thumb. Don't rush the shot either! If you
move off
target, stop pulling the trigger. Regain the bullseye and start over
with the
firing sequence.
Next is cheek contact with the stock. It should be very light. Don't lay
your
face down on the comb of the stock. Touch your cheek to the same spot
with each
shot.
Pull the gun up to your shoulder, then relax the 'pull-in' pressure to
the point
where the butt is merely touching your shoulder.
After you've learned all this, you still have to 'follow through' with
your aim,
once the gun is fired. Proper follow through involves keeping your eyes
on the
target, as best you can, while allowing the gun to float straight back
in its'
recoil. If you cannot master this follow through, everything else you've
done,
no matter how perfect, will place your pellets where you DON'T want
them.
Other techiniques to help master a hold sensitive gun are breathing and
adjusting your trigger properly-- when possible.
Just because a gun is hold sensitive doesn't make it inaccurate! Many
extermely
accurate springers can be hold sensitive, but to be precise, a shooter
MUST be
CONSISTENT. Without mastering consistency, the most expensive spring gun
is only
as mediocre as it shooter.
Another way to reduce hold sensitivity is to get the gun professionally
tuned. A
good tune removes excessive recoil and vibration, and improves the guns
shot to
shot consistency. Improved groups are almost always the result. The gun
is also
less fatiguing to shoot.
Even when the shooter is doing everything just right, they have the
feeling the
gun should be shooting smaller groups. This is usually an indication of
the guns
preference for a certain style or weight of pellet. Many airguns are
pellet
sensitive, not just spring guns. The quickest way to find your guns
pellet
preference is to ask other owners who have the same gun and caliber what
works
well for them. Because each gun is an individual, you may still need to
experiment with pellets of various weights and skirt sizes to determine
what is
truly the best for your own gun.
Springers require a certain amount finesse and experience before you can
appreciate them. A shooter who is very good with a spring gun is usually
an
excellent firearms shot, but not necessarily vice versa. Good Shooting
!~ Russ
My apologies for the stilted format. It copied poorly from original MAC text. RB
Daisy
Russ B
Thu Jan 10 '02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes it is Tim. Here's an article I wrote on Hold Sensitivity.
Many shooters using a spring gun for the first time complain they cannot
get
good groups with their guns. Rarely is this a problem with the gun.
There have been many discussions amongst airgunners about Hold
Sensitivity. What
is hold sensitivity? What guns are hold sensitive? How do I deal with a
hold
sensitive rifle? What can be done to reduce hold sensitivity? Let's look
at a
couple generalities, then get down to specifics.
Generally, guns that use pre-compressed gasses to develop power are not
what
we'd call hold sensitive. These include CO2,pump pneumatics and
pre-charged
pneumatics(PCP). Spring guns are nearly always more hold sensitive than
the
above mentioned types because of their recoilling nature. The moving
mechanical
mass jolts the gun when fired. Keeping the gun pointed at the desired
target,
while the pellet moves down the barrel is of utmost importance.
With a spring powered gun, the shooter must develop a VERY consistent
method of
shooting. This method has been called the "Artillery Hold" by Tom
Gaylord, and
the "Howitzer Hold" by Larry Durham. No matter which name you choose, it
amounts
to pretty much the same style of shooting. Another term used in
conjunction with
these is "follow through", which really has nothing to do with the way
the gun
is held prior to the trigger being pulled. Follow Through is what you do
after
the sear is released, and is only part of the Howitzer Hold technique.
The technique itself involves having minimal contact with your gun while
aiming
abd shooting. This means you don't GRIP the forestock, but rather you
let it
just lay on top of your hand. The finger grooves and fancy checkering on
spring
airguns is more of a styling carryover from firearms, and doesn't serve
much
purpose when firing a springer. This also means you rest your gun on
your hand
at the same point on the forestock every time. Champion airgunner Nick
Jenkinson
wrote an article on choosing the best contact point for your gun,
finding that
it's usually located at some point ranging from 2 to 7 inches in front
of your
trigger guard. Wherever your "sweetspot" is, use it consistently.
Changing from
one contact point to another, can alter your point of impact.
The next thing to watch is your grip on the rifles pistol grip. I rarely
wrap my
thumb around the grip, but instead- just barely touch the back of the
pistol
grip. Some shooters like to point their thumb up the back of the grip,
thumbtip
aiming at the end cap of the receiver tube. The fingers wrapping around
the grip
should just have very light contact with the gun. I generally only allow
the two
centermost fingers to control the grip- more to keep the gun from
leaning off
the vertical plane than anything else.
Another important point is to just use the pad of your fingertip on the
trigger.
Don't wrap the first finger joint around the trigger blade. When
squeezing off
the shot, apply no side pressure to the trigger blade - just ease it
straight
back towards the heel of your thumb. Don't rush the shot either! If you
move off
target, stop pulling the trigger. Regain the bullseye and start over
with the
firing sequence.
Next is cheek contact with the stock. It should be very light. Don't lay
your
face down on the comb of the stock. Touch your cheek to the same spot
with each
shot.
Pull the gun up to your shoulder, then relax the 'pull-in' pressure to
the point
where the butt is merely touching your shoulder.
After you've learned all this, you still have to 'follow through' with
your aim,
once the gun is fired. Proper follow through involves keeping your eyes
on the
target, as best you can, while allowing the gun to float straight back
in its'
recoil. If you cannot master this follow through, everything else you've
done,
no matter how perfect, will place your pellets where you DON'T want
them.
Other techiniques to help master a hold sensitive gun are breathing and
adjusting your trigger properly-- when possible.
Just because a gun is hold sensitive doesn't make it inaccurate! Many
extermely
accurate springers can be hold sensitive, but to be precise, a shooter
MUST be
CONSISTENT. Without mastering consistency, the most expensive spring gun
is only
as mediocre as it shooter.
Another way to reduce hold sensitivity is to get the gun professionally
tuned. A
good tune removes excessive recoil and vibration, and improves the guns
shot to
shot consistency. Improved groups are almost always the result. The gun
is also
less fatiguing to shoot.
Even when the shooter is doing everything just right, they have the
feeling the
gun should be shooting smaller groups. This is usually an indication of
the guns
preference for a certain style or weight of pellet. Many airguns are
pellet
sensitive, not just spring guns. The quickest way to find your guns
pellet
preference is to ask other owners who have the same gun and caliber what
works
well for them. Because each gun is an individual, you may still need to
experiment with pellets of various weights and skirt sizes to determine
what is
truly the best for your own gun.
Springers require a certain amount finesse and experience before you can
appreciate them. A shooter who is very good with a spring gun is usually
an
excellent firearms shot, but not necessarily vice versa. Good Shooting
!~ Russ
My apologies for the stilted format. It copied poorly from original MAC text. RB
-
fritz
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
IMO that's no where near acceptable, today I was shooting my Diana 34 .177 with Beeman HN Match Wadcutters at about 35m and getting 1/2 inch (~12.7mm) groups. I was shooting off of an old picnic table with a dog water bowl and a towel on top as a rest.
My technique is to set up a base to rest my rifle on that's about 3cm too low, so when I put a folded towel on it (to protect the rifle) it works out to the right height. I find the balance point of my rifle on it so that if I were to let go and look through binocculars/spotting scope my rifle will stay put.
When I go to shoot I lean over and grasp my rifle firmly with my trigger hand, and then make a fist with my off hand and put that under the butt of the rifle to act as a bag there, I can use my grip on the butt to raise/lower it's base. As I peer down the scope and start to control my breathing, I lightly place the butt into my shoulder so my hand can control it more. Thus less movement. Controling my breathing so at full exhale I am at the top of my target, and at full inhale I am at the base. Then I work on my horizontal movement, which usually isn't much because of my sturdy base and grip. I gently adjust that so I don't overcompensate and throw off my vertical. Then when it's all centered and I'm breathing steadily I start to slow my breathing gradually and begin to move less and less. Then when I get down to about a second between each breath (if I need the utmost of accuracy I hold my breath) I pull the take up from the trigger and feel it. Then gently squeezing the rifle goes off (THIS SHOULD SUPRISE YOU!!!!!) I grasp it as tight as I can to avoid the loss of accuracy from the piston going.
Bam, the pellet hits the target, and it's a bulls eye.
My technique is to set up a base to rest my rifle on that's about 3cm too low, so when I put a folded towel on it (to protect the rifle) it works out to the right height. I find the balance point of my rifle on it so that if I were to let go and look through binocculars/spotting scope my rifle will stay put.
When I go to shoot I lean over and grasp my rifle firmly with my trigger hand, and then make a fist with my off hand and put that under the butt of the rifle to act as a bag there, I can use my grip on the butt to raise/lower it's base. As I peer down the scope and start to control my breathing, I lightly place the butt into my shoulder so my hand can control it more. Thus less movement. Controling my breathing so at full exhale I am at the top of my target, and at full inhale I am at the base. Then I work on my horizontal movement, which usually isn't much because of my sturdy base and grip. I gently adjust that so I don't overcompensate and throw off my vertical. Then when it's all centered and I'm breathing steadily I start to slow my breathing gradually and begin to move less and less. Then when I get down to about a second between each breath (if I need the utmost of accuracy I hold my breath) I pull the take up from the trigger and feel it. Then gently squeezing the rifle goes off (THIS SHOULD SUPRISE YOU!!!!!) I grasp it as tight as I can to avoid the loss of accuracy from the piston going.
Bam, the pellet hits the target, and it's a bulls eye.
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Cheers for the imput guys.
That was a good post Daisy, lots of good info in there...
I tried shooting off of a couple of lounge cushions today and found that although it may have tightened the groups SLIGHTLY, the point of impact was off center. I ended up making groups about 2 inches high and to the left (roughly 11 'oclock). Based on what you guys have said and the results from todays test im thinking it definately must be my 'hold' or some other aspects of my shooting technique.
I had the Brno .22 out with me as well today and just to make sure i wasn't 'off' or having a bad day, i shot a few groups. It was shooting 1/2 inch groups all day.
This is my first springer so i guess i just have to learn to get used to it and improve my shooting skills!!!!!
I may look at getting a decent AR sometime in the future, they are a very cheap and practical way to practice and 'keep your eye in'.
Those FX's look quite nice... But i want to fill my safe with a few more center and rimfires first!
Thanks again guys
Hawk
That was a good post Daisy, lots of good info in there...
I tried shooting off of a couple of lounge cushions today and found that although it may have tightened the groups SLIGHTLY, the point of impact was off center. I ended up making groups about 2 inches high and to the left (roughly 11 'oclock). Based on what you guys have said and the results from todays test im thinking it definately must be my 'hold' or some other aspects of my shooting technique.
I had the Brno .22 out with me as well today and just to make sure i wasn't 'off' or having a bad day, i shot a few groups. It was shooting 1/2 inch groups all day.
This is my first springer so i guess i just have to learn to get used to it and improve my shooting skills!!!!!
I may look at getting a decent AR sometime in the future, they are a very cheap and practical way to practice and 'keep your eye in'.
Those FX's look quite nice... But i want to fill my safe with a few more center and rimfires first!
Thanks again guys
Hawk
-
fritz
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Remember that springers are hold sensative.
If I don't hold my gun just right I'll shoot tight groups, but they'll be like up-over 2 inches. Because the piston in the gun recoils first, then the pellet leaves the barrel. So a hold that lets the gun not move is very important.
If I don't hold my gun just right I'll shoot tight groups, but they'll be like up-over 2 inches. Because the piston in the gun recoils first, then the pellet leaves the barrel. So a hold that lets the gun not move is very important.
-
stinkitup
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x55
- Location: Lower Hunter Valley
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Mate try some other pellets, like a good Diablo shape (rounded nose) think someone else mentioned it or maybe a wadcutter. I use a sleeping bag in its roll (its not super hard and round) and no rest for the rear other than my shoulder and the R9 will shoot easy 1/2 inch 10 shots at 25 meters with good pellets JSB, H&N FTT. Kodiaks are a tad bigger group and crow magnums are just under an inch. Remember there abit like rimfire's they tend to like some pellets more than others (although the brno's aren't that fussy). pointed pellets in the R9 don't shoot real well either.
Oh and have fun
Oh and have fun
-
fritz
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
My guns HATE crosman pellets with a passion, they won't group at all. I can shoot 10 crosmans and hit in 10 different directions.
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Tried a different technique again today, and it showed some improvement at least 50% of the time. I was experiencing the same thing: groups got a little tighter but seemed to split and land 2-3 inches high sometimes. I was resting my open, relaxed hand on the sand bags on holding the stock only just to my shoulder.
I think your right Stinkitup
where do you get a name like that??? , I need to get some different pellets and try a few out... i might even pull out a sleeping bag and see how that goes!I was at the range today, and a guy came in with an X20 just like mine. he'd never shot it before so i let him shot for a while before i went and hassled him.
He ended up shooting a couple of nice groups under 10mm @ 10M resting on a 'lead sled' of all things!!! ...And no it didn't have lead IN the sled. Forgot to ask what pellets he was using. Damn it.
Anyway, that could mean a few things; hes a better shot than me, he was using better suited pellets than me, or i just got a dud rifle...
Oh well i'll keep tryin... and yes its LOTS of fun!!!
Hawk
-
stinkitup
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:46 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x55
- Location: Lower Hunter Valley
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Hawkeye77 wrote:
I think your right Stinkitup
Yes well I guess some family thinks I have some "special" qualities rude buggers I'm sure Lewis could help with some pellets send him a message, with the heap he sent me in different types with the R9 there are only about 4 that I shoout at game and the rest barely get used for plinking. Once you know what it likes stock up as they're not going to get cheaper.
Cheers
Ryan
-
fritz
Re: Acceptable accuracy?
Hawk, give this a try:
Use a cinder block or a brick and put a folded towel over it. Then rest the gun on the towel and move the whole setup so the butt is by the edge of your stand. Now when you look down the sights take your off hand and bring it around to kind of scratch your armpit, put your fingers on the butt from the other side, and your thumb under it, so then you can put the very edge on the table and use it like a rest, that you can easily pull out to raise, or push in to lower. It helps to have a table that is relatively low so you can put your chest upon it. If you're a big guy this may not work because theres no room for you.
Use a cinder block or a brick and put a folded towel over it. Then rest the gun on the towel and move the whole setup so the butt is by the edge of your stand. Now when you look down the sights take your off hand and bring it around to kind of scratch your armpit, put your fingers on the butt from the other side, and your thumb under it, so then you can put the very edge on the table and use it like a rest, that you can easily pull out to raise, or push in to lower. It helps to have a table that is relatively low so you can put your chest upon it. If you're a big guy this may not work because theres no room for you.