tony
quite a few years ago,the local glider pilots informed me that the windsocks (2 types) on the local aerodrome either maxed out at 20 or 25 knots.
spent a bit of time studying them and they are reasonably linear in their readings.
i made some smaller versions to test from ripstop nylon before i settled on the ball types.
i reckon the wind socks leave all the vane type clones for dead in terms of visibility (at all ranges), sensitivity, "linearality" and in the accuracy range of their scale of readings,
personally ,i found that with the wind socks, finding an easy,low space for travelling, transportable, convenient and quick means of erection (yeah i know boys!!!) on the ranges i visit, was the biggest problem.
just an opinion
cheers
dave g
Reading the wind????
-
dg
- 25/06 Remington
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:48 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6x47 lapua
- Location: narromine
Re: Reading the wind????
also re wind socks and general wind aids.
from playing around with different aspect ratios, ie the relative sizes of the air inlet/air outlets and length of the windsocks (as well as the weight/flexibility/visibility of the materials used in construction), it was very noticeable what effects, the above factors can produce on the sensitivity, response times and indicative values of wind strength that the wind socks display.
also, depending on the design sizes, it is also surprising how much "force" is generated and must be allowed for in the support system used.
i also find it intriguing, that some people believe that the more that you spend for wind flags, the better they must be.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE !!!!
perhaps, wind flag manufacturers need to state clearly, as to whether their products are linear in the readings indicated, what is the minimum and maximum wind speed they can indicate, do they clearly indicate cross wind vector strengths (without the need for a lengthy mental calibration), are they designed to be seen in the scopes field of view?.etc.
from my own observations over a bit of time in numerous locations, i have yet to see any wind vane clone flags (whether single/multi vaned, single/multi tailed or with or without propellers) that can reliably indicate wind strengths over 10 knots (some are lucky to get to 5 knots before they max out)
those, familiar with, common big bore flags ( and wind socks) can at glance, quite accurately read wind speeds between 2 - 25 knots and also have a pretty fair grasp on the direction as well.
Perhaps someone might like to state how they work out their wind allowances if the wind is gusting at say 10-20 knots, but there wind indicators only read to say, 5-10knots????
i guess the point i am trying to make, is that people should do some homework on the various wind flags designs.
don't just rush in spend hundreds of $$$$ on something that may not suit your shooting needs.
flags that may be "ok" for short range, may not be suitable for long range and vice versa.
other factors that may also need to be considered are :-
do the flags have to transportable or permanent?
visible always through a scope or by naked eye ( or both)?
the space required for transport and storage.
are they time consuming and easy to set up and take down?( 1 man job or do you need a team of assistants?)
what wind strengths are you likely to encounter at your home range or when travelling away?
is regular maintenance or upkeep is required on the flag type chosen?
hope this provides some food for thought.
cheers dave g
from playing around with different aspect ratios, ie the relative sizes of the air inlet/air outlets and length of the windsocks (as well as the weight/flexibility/visibility of the materials used in construction), it was very noticeable what effects, the above factors can produce on the sensitivity, response times and indicative values of wind strength that the wind socks display.
also, depending on the design sizes, it is also surprising how much "force" is generated and must be allowed for in the support system used.
i also find it intriguing, that some people believe that the more that you spend for wind flags, the better they must be.
THIS IS NOT THE CASE !!!!
perhaps, wind flag manufacturers need to state clearly, as to whether their products are linear in the readings indicated, what is the minimum and maximum wind speed they can indicate, do they clearly indicate cross wind vector strengths (without the need for a lengthy mental calibration), are they designed to be seen in the scopes field of view?.etc.
from my own observations over a bit of time in numerous locations, i have yet to see any wind vane clone flags (whether single/multi vaned, single/multi tailed or with or without propellers) that can reliably indicate wind strengths over 10 knots (some are lucky to get to 5 knots before they max out)
those, familiar with, common big bore flags ( and wind socks) can at glance, quite accurately read wind speeds between 2 - 25 knots and also have a pretty fair grasp on the direction as well.
Perhaps someone might like to state how they work out their wind allowances if the wind is gusting at say 10-20 knots, but there wind indicators only read to say, 5-10knots????
i guess the point i am trying to make, is that people should do some homework on the various wind flags designs.
don't just rush in spend hundreds of $$$$ on something that may not suit your shooting needs.
flags that may be "ok" for short range, may not be suitable for long range and vice versa.
other factors that may also need to be considered are :-
do the flags have to transportable or permanent?
visible always through a scope or by naked eye ( or both)?
the space required for transport and storage.
are they time consuming and easy to set up and take down?( 1 man job or do you need a team of assistants?)
what wind strengths are you likely to encounter at your home range or when travelling away?
is regular maintenance or upkeep is required on the flag type chosen?
hope this provides some food for thought.
cheers dave g
-
Curtley78
- Political Advisor/Activist
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 am
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- Location: Helensburgh 'Dixie'
Re: Reading the wind????
I intend to trial the windsock within the next fortnight at Silverdale. I will let all know how it performs.
At a later stage I intend to utilise three different sized windsocks, hopefully I will have these for 'show and tell' at the next fly shoot at Bateman's Bay.
In theory having three of various sizes would enable an individual to differentiate wind speed, a larger windsock say 5 feet in length wouldn't max out in a breeze of say 5-10 knots, I doubt as to whether it would actually inflate, however it would still provide direction, a three foot windsock may fly 45 deg whereas the two foot sock flat-out.
I have seen the 'windsocks' at the airport almost stand vertical when big storms were approaching.
By also looking at the fluttering within the sock one would be able to differentiate wind velocity, from what I have also read 'windsocks' have to be placed where their is wind and not at set distances.
At the end of the day it will be all trial, error and frustration until one learns how to read their own devices.
One thing is a certainty the price of half a dozen windsocks and tomato stakes does not equal the price of a new barrel or the more traditional pointing devices.
At a later stage I intend to utilise three different sized windsocks, hopefully I will have these for 'show and tell' at the next fly shoot at Bateman's Bay.
In theory having three of various sizes would enable an individual to differentiate wind speed, a larger windsock say 5 feet in length wouldn't max out in a breeze of say 5-10 knots, I doubt as to whether it would actually inflate, however it would still provide direction, a three foot windsock may fly 45 deg whereas the two foot sock flat-out.
I have seen the 'windsocks' at the airport almost stand vertical when big storms were approaching.
By also looking at the fluttering within the sock one would be able to differentiate wind velocity, from what I have also read 'windsocks' have to be placed where their is wind and not at set distances.
At the end of the day it will be all trial, error and frustration until one learns how to read their own devices.
One thing is a certainty the price of half a dozen windsocks and tomato stakes does not equal the price of a new barrel or the more traditional pointing devices.
-
Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 25.06
- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
Re: Reading the wind????
Sean,
I am not saying it can't be done but it will ceratinly be interesting to watch.
Tony Z is looking for an indicator for a particular location rather than a series of indicators which is an entirely different situation. I also feel that by having different sizes you may just be making what is really a simple process far to complicated.
Time will tell I suppose.
cheers
Rinso
I have reservations about this theory. Whilst I am sure it would work to some point, have you considered the amount of mental calculations required for each shot to ensure that you are reading all the flags correctly ?In theory having three of various sizes would enable an individual to differentiate wind speed, a larger windsock say 5 feet in length wouldn't max out in a breeze of say 5-10 knots, I doubt as to whether it would actually inflate, however it would still provide direction, a three foot windsock may fly 45 deg whereas the two foot sock flat-out.
I am not saying it can't be done but it will ceratinly be interesting to watch.
Tony Z is looking for an indicator for a particular location rather than a series of indicators which is an entirely different situation. I also feel that by having different sizes you may just be making what is really a simple process far to complicated.
Time will tell I suppose.
cheers
Rinso
Re: Reading the wind????
Found out a bit more about the theory on how the wind socks work from a mate today. Seems there is a lot more to it than i first thought. What he did tell me is that with the larger type of sock they are virtually usless for wind speeds of a few knots, but come into their own after 10 knots. There seems to be a lot of science involved in the entry and exit ring sizes and the length of sock ratio. Too much for this little brain to cope with or really need to know. So i think i will just purchase a couple of known working units and go from there. Making our own may not produce the results we are looking for. Took a drive out to the airport to have a look at a wind sock in operation and it is very much like that of the sail tails on the short range flags that Edgely sells excepting where Edgelys' are virtually horizontal and useless beyond 10 knots, the sock is at about 25 0r 30 degrees from the vertical.
I am convinced that our group and score aggs are restricted by the information coming back from the range. If a gun can put 4 shots under the inch, it can put 5 under the inch. Wind flags are the holy grail for us at the moment with JR, albow and myself looking to solve this problem.
Tony Z.
I am convinced that our group and score aggs are restricted by the information coming back from the range. If a gun can put 4 shots under the inch, it can put 5 under the inch. Wind flags are the holy grail for us at the moment with JR, albow and myself looking to solve this problem.
Tony Z.
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
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- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
Re: Reading the wind????
G'Day all,
At Melb, airport, the wind sock seems to be very readable and seem to flat line above 50 knots. After that they show angle but not increasing wind strength.
Having watched them as a shooter for over 13yrs, in heavy winds, say over 25-45 knots, they work well, but only up to 50knots max. Below 30knots I would use a conventional BR style flag.
Also, remember pilots do get radio messages of wind strength and direction from the tower and the see the sock from above as well making direction easy to determine it they use them at all these days........
Us shooters dont have that luxury. This is why I prefer having a wind flag vane with a large aspect ratio, that is, 4-5 times longer than the height of the vane. As the apparent length of the vane "shortens" with angle changes, you can see it quickly rom the bench. It is max length when is a full cross wind; shortest when head/tail wind. If the winds are stronger than this it becomes a survival match, not a competition!
For angle changes, I think the best is offered by a 6" diameter foam ball where it is painted black when viewed from say head on and white 180deg away from you. This must be fitted to key directly to the wind sock/vane assembly without affecting the flow of air over/through the vane or sock that is vital to the proper working of the vane/sock. That's why I dont like the yankie daisy wheel styled flags since I reckon the daisy wheels mask the vane behind them to the airflow and the inertia of the daisy wheel slows the reaction of the vane to any wind angle changes.
Ideally the 6'' foam ball should be mounted on the pivot point (above or below it) and at 6'' it should be (hopefully?) visible at longer ranges. Only testing will prove this.
Anyway, they are my thoughts, hope they help.
cheerio Ned
At Melb, airport, the wind sock seems to be very readable and seem to flat line above 50 knots. After that they show angle but not increasing wind strength.
Having watched them as a shooter for over 13yrs, in heavy winds, say over 25-45 knots, they work well, but only up to 50knots max. Below 30knots I would use a conventional BR style flag.
Also, remember pilots do get radio messages of wind strength and direction from the tower and the see the sock from above as well making direction easy to determine it they use them at all these days........
Us shooters dont have that luxury. This is why I prefer having a wind flag vane with a large aspect ratio, that is, 4-5 times longer than the height of the vane. As the apparent length of the vane "shortens" with angle changes, you can see it quickly rom the bench. It is max length when is a full cross wind; shortest when head/tail wind. If the winds are stronger than this it becomes a survival match, not a competition!
For angle changes, I think the best is offered by a 6" diameter foam ball where it is painted black when viewed from say head on and white 180deg away from you. This must be fitted to key directly to the wind sock/vane assembly without affecting the flow of air over/through the vane or sock that is vital to the proper working of the vane/sock. That's why I dont like the yankie daisy wheel styled flags since I reckon the daisy wheels mask the vane behind them to the airflow and the inertia of the daisy wheel slows the reaction of the vane to any wind angle changes.
Ideally the 6'' foam ball should be mounted on the pivot point (above or below it) and at 6'' it should be (hopefully?) visible at longer ranges. Only testing will prove this.
Anyway, they are my thoughts, hope they help.
cheerio Ned
-
dg
- 25/06 Remington
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:48 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6x47 lapua
- Location: narromine
Re: Reading the wind????
Sean
Good luck with your wind sock trials at Silverdale. I would be interested to read your assessment of how they perform and compare to the traditional types. I think it’s good to see that individuality and experimentation is still alive in benchrest!!!
On other matters,
before commenting further, on the topic of wind flags, I think it would be appropriate to freely admit, that on occasions too numerous to mention, I have been trounced in br/field rifle competitions by competitors using all types and manners of wind flags and also by people who don’t use wind indicators.
The point of this dialogue is to primarily encourage competitive shooters to think about, or re-assess the suitability and performance characteristics of their existing wind indication systems.
Cause, if they had better wind flags, they would not only beat the likes of myself by larger margins, BUT they would actually improve their performances in comparison to others and also shoot higher individual scores or much smaller groups.
I don’t know too many shooters who would be adverse to these consequences
As has been mentioned or alluded to by all contributors to this topic, the ability to “read the wind” is of equal importance to appropriate load development, rifle/design and set up, efficient cleaning practises, shooting technique etc etc in the overall scale of achieving competitive BR or Fclass accuracy.
To stress the importance of wind reading, consider the following, when using a 280 ackley @ 1000yds, a wind misread of just 21/2 knots (5kmh - that’s normal walking speed) can cause a total miss of the target.
At 500m, a similar misread with a 7X57 IMP can move bullet impact from the centre of the fly target to a non scoring position outside the rings!!!.
Short range benchresters, could probably, no doubt, quote, how many bullet holes of movement, a breeze of this amount can generate on a 100 or 200 yard target.
Remember also, we are talking only 21/2 knots of wind in the above examples, imagine the mental stress of trying to determine the “aim off” in all these situations for 10 - 20 knots?
Realistically, all of us are probably quite aware of the wind characteristics on our local ranges. As an example, on the Narromine Dubbo big bore range, on average, the usual wind strengths faced each weekend are in the region of gusting 5-15 knot breezes. On rare occasions it may “boil” all day and on others, it blows that hard, that it is impossible to move the frames up or down. Consequently, given these likely situations, the wind flags employed must as best possible, be adaptive to these conditions.
To suit local and Canberra needs, my priority has been to concentrate on a flag system that can reasonably accurately indicate wind strengths between calm conditions to 25 knots.
Having visited Ned’s country, in and around Little River, and noticed that trees tend to grow sideways in that region, I reckon that flags that can read to 40-50 knots, could at times, come in handy.
I also, would be confident in stating that, there would not be too many shooters who have not faced the situation and nervous apprehension of trying to decide when and where to aim the first sighter shot in “bad conditions” during competitions. It does not matter if this is in short range BR, LR benchrest, big bore or
Fclass, usually in this situation the primary aim (no pun intended) is to hit the sighter target or plate, doesn’t matter where, just somewhere, cause if you miss, there goes the blood pressure and stress levels, you are in TROUBLE.
In this situation, good wind flags are your best and only friend.
For any wind flag design, the more “drag” or friction that can be produced, the more efficient and responsive will be any reaction or indication of the flag to the prevailing air flow.
[Off the subject, I have read and find it interesting, that a submerged bucket, pulled through a liquid with large opening to the front, generates less “drag” than the same bucket that is reversed and pulled through the liquid with small end to the front. Anyone care to comment on this?]
Also, just as a matter of interest, the only shape that is able to produce consistent “drag” for air flow from any direction is the sphere or ball.
So, with wind flag designs, in addition to previously mentioned design pre-requisites of high visibility, durability, portability, simplicity, corrosion, weather resistance, “linearity” and the like, ideally, the design utilised should provide, maximum air drag generation, minimum or no internal friction to moving parts and the lightest weight of total component parts to minimise inertia (resistance to change or movement).
Additionally, I agree with Ned that revolving parts (propellers) generate gyroscopic forces which apart from inducing significant resistant to direction changes, have poor response times and long delays in speeding up to or slowing down to show the actual prevailing wind speeds.
It may be worthwhile to set up your wind flags in a suitable place ( shed, lounge room, doorway or wherever) and use the wind flow from natural drafts, fans, air conditioners or the like to test the response and behaviour of your flags.
To know the delay times and actual minimum and maximum speeds that your flags are able to indicate can only be beneficial knowledge for future shooting activities.
Just my thoughts
Cheers
dave g
Good luck with your wind sock trials at Silverdale. I would be interested to read your assessment of how they perform and compare to the traditional types. I think it’s good to see that individuality and experimentation is still alive in benchrest!!!
On other matters,
before commenting further, on the topic of wind flags, I think it would be appropriate to freely admit, that on occasions too numerous to mention, I have been trounced in br/field rifle competitions by competitors using all types and manners of wind flags and also by people who don’t use wind indicators.
The point of this dialogue is to primarily encourage competitive shooters to think about, or re-assess the suitability and performance characteristics of their existing wind indication systems.
Cause, if they had better wind flags, they would not only beat the likes of myself by larger margins, BUT they would actually improve their performances in comparison to others and also shoot higher individual scores or much smaller groups.
I don’t know too many shooters who would be adverse to these consequences
As has been mentioned or alluded to by all contributors to this topic, the ability to “read the wind” is of equal importance to appropriate load development, rifle/design and set up, efficient cleaning practises, shooting technique etc etc in the overall scale of achieving competitive BR or Fclass accuracy.
To stress the importance of wind reading, consider the following, when using a 280 ackley @ 1000yds, a wind misread of just 21/2 knots (5kmh - that’s normal walking speed) can cause a total miss of the target.
At 500m, a similar misread with a 7X57 IMP can move bullet impact from the centre of the fly target to a non scoring position outside the rings!!!.
Short range benchresters, could probably, no doubt, quote, how many bullet holes of movement, a breeze of this amount can generate on a 100 or 200 yard target.
Remember also, we are talking only 21/2 knots of wind in the above examples, imagine the mental stress of trying to determine the “aim off” in all these situations for 10 - 20 knots?
Realistically, all of us are probably quite aware of the wind characteristics on our local ranges. As an example, on the Narromine Dubbo big bore range, on average, the usual wind strengths faced each weekend are in the region of gusting 5-15 knot breezes. On rare occasions it may “boil” all day and on others, it blows that hard, that it is impossible to move the frames up or down. Consequently, given these likely situations, the wind flags employed must as best possible, be adaptive to these conditions.
To suit local and Canberra needs, my priority has been to concentrate on a flag system that can reasonably accurately indicate wind strengths between calm conditions to 25 knots.
Having visited Ned’s country, in and around Little River, and noticed that trees tend to grow sideways in that region, I reckon that flags that can read to 40-50 knots, could at times, come in handy.
I also, would be confident in stating that, there would not be too many shooters who have not faced the situation and nervous apprehension of trying to decide when and where to aim the first sighter shot in “bad conditions” during competitions. It does not matter if this is in short range BR, LR benchrest, big bore or
Fclass, usually in this situation the primary aim (no pun intended) is to hit the sighter target or plate, doesn’t matter where, just somewhere, cause if you miss, there goes the blood pressure and stress levels, you are in TROUBLE.
In this situation, good wind flags are your best and only friend.
For any wind flag design, the more “drag” or friction that can be produced, the more efficient and responsive will be any reaction or indication of the flag to the prevailing air flow.
[Off the subject, I have read and find it interesting, that a submerged bucket, pulled through a liquid with large opening to the front, generates less “drag” than the same bucket that is reversed and pulled through the liquid with small end to the front. Anyone care to comment on this?]
Also, just as a matter of interest, the only shape that is able to produce consistent “drag” for air flow from any direction is the sphere or ball.
So, with wind flag designs, in addition to previously mentioned design pre-requisites of high visibility, durability, portability, simplicity, corrosion, weather resistance, “linearity” and the like, ideally, the design utilised should provide, maximum air drag generation, minimum or no internal friction to moving parts and the lightest weight of total component parts to minimise inertia (resistance to change or movement).
Additionally, I agree with Ned that revolving parts (propellers) generate gyroscopic forces which apart from inducing significant resistant to direction changes, have poor response times and long delays in speeding up to or slowing down to show the actual prevailing wind speeds.
It may be worthwhile to set up your wind flags in a suitable place ( shed, lounge room, doorway or wherever) and use the wind flow from natural drafts, fans, air conditioners or the like to test the response and behaviour of your flags.
To know the delay times and actual minimum and maximum speeds that your flags are able to indicate can only be beneficial knowledge for future shooting activities.
Just my thoughts
Cheers
dave g
-
Curtley78
- Political Advisor/Activist
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 7mm08 AI
- Location: Helensburgh 'Dixie'
Re: Reading the wind????
Dave G,
I was at Heathcoate small bore last Sunday and was informed by one of the members that 'windsocks' were prohibited by their association, he went further to state as to why.
He said that if every shooter had a different type of wind reading device this would lead to confusion, therefore they have specific length, material type and weight.
I'm not sure if the SSAA have a similar ruling on this, however it could always be amended by majority rule of our members.
I was at Heathcoate small bore last Sunday and was informed by one of the members that 'windsocks' were prohibited by their association, he went further to state as to why.
He said that if every shooter had a different type of wind reading device this would lead to confusion, therefore they have specific length, material type and weight.
I'm not sure if the SSAA have a similar ruling on this, however it could always be amended by majority rule of our members.
-
Roars
Re: Reading the wind????
OK people
As I'm very much a novice here and to BR (still waiting on my license) I have done nothing but watch. Watch shooters practice and compete in different conditions on different ranges with different levels of expertise for several months. At this point I might add I can't wait to get started.
But I do understand what everyone here has talked about. As a novice I think that a wind sock would be much more suitable for reading wind speed and direction also the vertical. I understand thermals and know how to read a sock been a student pilot. But as someone here mentioned size has a lot to do with the results. As a general rule winds socks at airports read from 5 - 25/30 knots. Which I have been taught starts at about 6.30 on a clock and progresses until you hit vertical, above this I have seen them detach in storm conditions.
The trick is seems would be to make something to scale from appropriate materials with variation on design to give the correct visuals on a range.
I have read everything that has been posted on this topic here and saved some info for later reference. I found it all very interesting and will be sussing it out in more detail when I start shooting. Hopefully not to long now lol.
If anyone here is experimenting with anything I have mentioned above, I'd love to hear more.
Rochelle
As I'm very much a novice here and to BR (still waiting on my license) I have done nothing but watch. Watch shooters practice and compete in different conditions on different ranges with different levels of expertise for several months. At this point I might add I can't wait to get started.
But I do understand what everyone here has talked about. As a novice I think that a wind sock would be much more suitable for reading wind speed and direction also the vertical. I understand thermals and know how to read a sock been a student pilot. But as someone here mentioned size has a lot to do with the results. As a general rule winds socks at airports read from 5 - 25/30 knots. Which I have been taught starts at about 6.30 on a clock and progresses until you hit vertical, above this I have seen them detach in storm conditions.
The trick is seems would be to make something to scale from appropriate materials with variation on design to give the correct visuals on a range.
I have read everything that has been posted on this topic here and saved some info for later reference. I found it all very interesting and will be sussing it out in more detail when I start shooting. Hopefully not to long now lol.
If anyone here is experimenting with anything I have mentioned above, I'd love to hear more.
Rochelle
-
Knackers
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2381
- Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:22 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: .223
- Location: Riverina NSW
Re: Reading the wind????
Welcome to the forum Roar, look forward to your posts. 
-
dg
- 25/06 Remington
- Posts: 834
- Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:48 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6x47 lapua
- Location: narromine
Re: Reading the wind????
Rochelle
ditto knackers comments
sean
as far as i know on ssaa ranges, providing the your flags do not impede the visibility of other shooters and are ok'd by the range officer, then there should not be any problems.
just as a matter of interest, what type of flags do the smallbore organisation use???
cheers
dave g
ditto knackers comments
sean
as far as i know on ssaa ranges, providing the your flags do not impede the visibility of other shooters and are ok'd by the range officer, then there should not be any problems.
just as a matter of interest, what type of flags do the smallbore organisation use???
cheers
dave g
-
Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
Re: Reading the wind????
G'Day all,
welcome Rochelle!
As for vertical indications, the lighter the flag AND ribbon or wind sock the faster and therefore truer the indication of vertical (or for that matter ANY change).
Vertical in my opinion is caused by turbulence from mounds, trees, roof lines etc etc that cause a rotor or horizontal spinning swirl of air. This can be seen as aircraft fly through smoke at their wing tips.
So what you will see is the ribbon going up but rarely recognise the down draft part of the rotor, you may be thinking it is a let up in wind strength when it is a down draft. Any time the wind flags are switchy means there is turbulent air around and shooting requires a lot of luck.
a good open range like Little River near Geelong, gives good consistent wind with small changes in strength and is readable, Canberra has lots of terraces out to 500, plus trees, buildings that channel wind, create swirls etc and back flowing air in relation to the predominant flow. Tricky to shoot!
I always try to consider air flow like a small creek, grab a stick, mess up some silt and watch the silt flow, swirl, speed up, or drft according to the rocks, channels, or OTHER water flow interacting with the area you messed up.
Air IS EXACTLY the same as water flowing and thow into that different layers of heavy/light air, with different directions as you go higher, it is a real challenge for the precision shooter.
Anyway food for thought and hope it helps.
cheerio Ned
welcome Rochelle!
As for vertical indications, the lighter the flag AND ribbon or wind sock the faster and therefore truer the indication of vertical (or for that matter ANY change).
Vertical in my opinion is caused by turbulence from mounds, trees, roof lines etc etc that cause a rotor or horizontal spinning swirl of air. This can be seen as aircraft fly through smoke at their wing tips.
So what you will see is the ribbon going up but rarely recognise the down draft part of the rotor, you may be thinking it is a let up in wind strength when it is a down draft. Any time the wind flags are switchy means there is turbulent air around and shooting requires a lot of luck.
a good open range like Little River near Geelong, gives good consistent wind with small changes in strength and is readable, Canberra has lots of terraces out to 500, plus trees, buildings that channel wind, create swirls etc and back flowing air in relation to the predominant flow. Tricky to shoot!
I always try to consider air flow like a small creek, grab a stick, mess up some silt and watch the silt flow, swirl, speed up, or drft according to the rocks, channels, or OTHER water flow interacting with the area you messed up.
Air IS EXACTLY the same as water flowing and thow into that different layers of heavy/light air, with different directions as you go higher, it is a real challenge for the precision shooter.
Anyway food for thought and hope it helps.
cheerio Ned
-
Curtley78
- Political Advisor/Activist
- Posts: 1170
- Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:17 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 7mm08 AI
- Location: Helensburgh 'Dixie'
Re: Reading the wind????
[quote="dg" just as a matter of interest, what type of flags do the smallbore organisation use??? [/quote]
Rochelle welcome to ausvarmint.
Dave,
They are using what appeared to be a nylon type material that is used in Kite's and parachute's.
They measure about 20-30 cm in length and about 10cm in width and are simply attached to a metal stake, a pretty basic type of device.
Last week I would not have bothered with a flag on the 'pop-gun' range, however one the older members requested the windflags (they take there shooting pretty seriously) and there was a look of horror when I presented the 'windsock'.
Since Knackers has started this thread and got us all thinking on the subject I have also thought that perhaps an electric motor (the kind used in Tamiya radio controlled cars) with a propeller attached, this could be converted into a type of generator. This could incorporate a series of lights, the harder the wind blows the more lights are lit on the panel.
Rochelle welcome to ausvarmint.
Dave,
They are using what appeared to be a nylon type material that is used in Kite's and parachute's.
They measure about 20-30 cm in length and about 10cm in width and are simply attached to a metal stake, a pretty basic type of device.
Last week I would not have bothered with a flag on the 'pop-gun' range, however one the older members requested the windflags (they take there shooting pretty seriously) and there was a look of horror when I presented the 'windsock'.
Since Knackers has started this thread and got us all thinking on the subject I have also thought that perhaps an electric motor (the kind used in Tamiya radio controlled cars) with a propeller attached, this could be converted into a type of generator. This could incorporate a series of lights, the harder the wind blows the more lights are lit on the panel.
-
Ackley Improved
- 6mm Dasher
- Posts: 1898
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:24 pm
- Location: Albury
Re: Reading the wind????
Interesting on flag discussion.......
From my limited competiton shooting, it appears that each day presents a different range of conditions. On previous shoots at the same range, a different design of flags are better suited to the conditions given on that day. Even during a individual shoot, flags to start on are not always what you finish your last target target on. For this reason, I like going to a competition with many different flag designs.
The last comp I shot, the first two targets were very well scored. I was watching the foam ball type of the Fuge's. On my 3rd target I was burnt badly, and the 4th also. On the 5th and last target I decided to watch other flags, as I could not work out what was getting me. The last target was also a great target, and the smallest for the detail.
Maybe the foam balls were still reading the wind right on my bad targets, but I couldnt work out the infomation given to me from them. When I viewed the vane type flags on my last target, I could read this condition that I was struggling with.
Also, at Melbourne last year the wind was bad, and I could not read anything on the flags.. I shot on 1 flag, the wind felt on my body, and a wind probe at 200m odd. I did very well in this shoot, which for the best part of it was really not shot on any flag....
I think it comes down to who's on, on the day. Someone could be missing what they should be reading, and the guy next to them seeing it no problem!
So, maybe one type/design of flag will not be the best option, but a combination of different types. It depends on the shooter on the given day also.
Cheers
AI
From my limited competiton shooting, it appears that each day presents a different range of conditions. On previous shoots at the same range, a different design of flags are better suited to the conditions given on that day. Even during a individual shoot, flags to start on are not always what you finish your last target target on. For this reason, I like going to a competition with many different flag designs.
The last comp I shot, the first two targets were very well scored. I was watching the foam ball type of the Fuge's. On my 3rd target I was burnt badly, and the 4th also. On the 5th and last target I decided to watch other flags, as I could not work out what was getting me. The last target was also a great target, and the smallest for the detail.
Maybe the foam balls were still reading the wind right on my bad targets, but I couldnt work out the infomation given to me from them. When I viewed the vane type flags on my last target, I could read this condition that I was struggling with.
Also, at Melbourne last year the wind was bad, and I could not read anything on the flags.. I shot on 1 flag, the wind felt on my body, and a wind probe at 200m odd. I did very well in this shoot, which for the best part of it was really not shot on any flag....
I think it comes down to who's on, on the day. Someone could be missing what they should be reading, and the guy next to them seeing it no problem!
So, maybe one type/design of flag will not be the best option, but a combination of different types. It depends on the shooter on the given day also.
Cheers
AI
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Roars
Re: Reading the wind????
Thanks guys
More food for thought can't wait to test it.
Rochelle
More food for thought
can't wait to test it.Rochelle