omark rebarrel

[Rinso]

Exactly. If you can keep 10 shots in a 10 inch circle at 1000yds you have a good score in f class. 10 shots in 10 inches in BR rarely cuts the mustard. I like shooting f class and while 7mm does rule the roost at long ranges and windy conditions they are often beaten by 6mm's and good drivers at short and mid ranges.

Brad,
I know what you are saying is accurate as far as results go but I just don't get it, never have either as a matter of fact.
If a 6mm wins at the shorts and mids how does it loose at the longs???
The winner (assuming all and sundry have tuned their gear correctly) is the best wind reader on the day. Now sometimes luck comes into it with certain groups getting more favourable winds while on the mound but how does someone who won at 600 suddenly loose the ability to read the wind and shoot at 800 or 900??? Same gear, same range, same driver yet someone who cant shoot at the 500-600 yardage can trot out a 7mm and be better. That makes no sense, the 7 does not have that much of an edge or that's all anyone would use.
So what happens at the longs in the NRAA to create this phenomenon????????

[Brad Y]

I dont know either mate, but the results usually show the 7mm's win more longs than the 6's do. Occasionally someone rocks up and blitzes them all with a 6 but whether its a confidence thing to have a bigger gun or just wind reading ability or a mix of both. Rod Davies is an excellent example of a shooter making the best of having a small cal and large cal rifle available. Im sure he could give his reasons why, as he has the medals in the poolroom to back it up. I should note there are many shooters using a 7mm all the way from 300-1000. And they win as well. But more and more people seem to pick two calibers to work with.

Remember alot of people do paper comparisons with 10mph cross winds. Most of the time that stable 10mph crosswind doesnt happen on a range and yes there isnt that much difference on paper (but enough to make a near miss turn into a lucky shot provided wind reading is constant). On the range as you know its direction changes, cool/warm air pockets and pickups and dropoffs, often at different distances downrange and multiple times during flight. It makes sense that it takes more effort to move a heavier and higher BC projectile than it does a lighter and lower BC one. Theres more chance of these switchy and turbulent sorts of conditions affecting bullets the longer they are in flight (long ranges). I guess its all about maximising ones chances as best as possible before the human element is introduced into the equation.

Another point I think about is reducing barrel wear (and fatigue) shooting larger calibers at ranges they arent necessarily needed. Others cant handle the recoil of larger calibers well enough to be competitive and so they stay with smaller holes in their barrels. And of course there is the cost factor for some as well.

[Seddo]

.
If a 6mm wins at the shorts and mids how does it loose at the longs???

It all has to do with wind drift. If you make a 10% error in a wind call the 7mm will put you closer to where you wanted than the 6mm as it had more drift to start with. The closer you are to the centre the higher the chance of a better score.

[Rinso]

.
If a 6mm wins at the shorts and mids how does it loose at the longs???

It all has to do with wind drift. If you make a 10% error in a wind call the 7mm will put you closer to where you wanted than the 6mm as it had more drift to start with. The closer you are to the centre the higher the chance of a better score.

Yes mate I get that ... what I don't get is that what you are saying applies at all ranges so the drift between the 600yd and 800yd is not that much extra so why the major difference in results

[Seddo]

The further out you go the gap in the drift figures get bigger so it matters more.

[Rinso]

The further out you go the gap in the drift figures get bigger so it matters more.

Yes mate I am well aware of the effects of wind drift, I am also well aware of the basis of basic ballistics and its implications on bullet flight.

My point all along which you seem to be missing is that if I can read the wind at 500 yards better than you and I shoot a 6mm against your 7mm, I will all other things being equal(tune etc) beat you at 500 yards.
Now at 800 yards I suddenly lose to your 7mm ....
I am still a better wind reader
Our gear is the same as we shot at 500
So unless a zombie ate my brain on the way to 800yd mound whats changed????

Now yes you have a slightly greater margin for error at the 800 but it would not generally be enough to make a difference if I am reading the wind better than you. The drift factor may save you a point in a yardage and I say may because as often as not it wont. It certainly doesn't make up a couple of points a yardage.

So if I am a better wind reader and have again held better and allowed for the extra drift (that's what being a better wind reader generally means) so my score wont generally be affected by changing yardage as wind doping is wind doping wether at 300 or 1000yds. If you are a good wind reader it don't matter the distance and I can cite a lot of names of blokes who shoot stunningly well from 50m with rim fires to 1000 yards simply because they are good wind readers and can tune a rifle. You are still missing wind changes and having the resulting effects on target (7mm wont save every bad read it may make a marginal shot acceptable but that's about it)

What changes at the 'longs' in the NRAA that makes the 7mm suddenly the be all and end all???????
As stated prior if the 7mm was that good we would all be shooting it. I have seen stacks of 7mm's used in 500 Fly and 1k BR but compare the results against 6mm,6.5 and 30 cal and you soon see the 6mm and 30 cal clear front runners a few 6.5's have done alright (I even owned one of those) but 7mm's not so much in the results department.

I know 6mm's and 6.5's will shoot 4-5inch groups at 1000 yards I have done it and I have watched many others do it as well so they are well capable everywhere but F Open ..... ??????? It was'nt that long ago that the 6.5-284 was all the rage for the longs now its the 7mm in particular the 284, I sometimes think its more mind over matter but that's just me being old and grumpy.

[ecomeat]

Alan Fraser is the webmaster at ozfclass.com , as well as being a member of the 2013 Australian F Open Team that brought home the Team Gold Medal from the 2013 F Class World Championships at Raton, NM in the USA. He is a 7mm/284 Shehane shooter himself.
He has done a statistical analysis of the Queens results (virtually a State Championship) for F Class Open and it is a statistical fact that the scores and average percentages (of the winners score) drops off dramatically after 700 yards.
Basically it is statistically proven that there are now a large number of F Open shooters with great scores out to 700 yards.......but that's where the wheels fall off for a huge percentage of competitors (me included) and from 800 to 1000 yards the results nosedive.
We are extremely fortunate to have had a poster called "Williada" take a strong interest in our sport and the ozfclass forum, over the past 18 months or so. Seddo knows who he is and what his knowledge levels are, and I am sure he will agree with me that Williada is a rare gem.
Anyway.....if i understand him correctly, Williada maintains that it's because a rifle can be tuned without POSITIVE COMPENSATION , to perform accurately out to 700 yards. Any rifle basically can and will have multiple tight, nodal tunes that will work out to 700 yards if the conditions are right (ie temp, humidity, elevation altitude, air pressure etc)
But from 800 yards to 1000 yards, understanding and including Positive Compensation is an important factor in develong an accurate load for "the longs". So effectively, most rifles need two loads to be developed...one for 300-700 yds and a second for 800-1000 yards.
The statistics that Alan Fraser has done seem to prove that far too many of us haven't done the extra work required to develop a "tuned" load specifically for the longs. The vast majority of Open Prize Meetings in my part of the world (SE Qld) are shot from 300-600 yards, and so we get a load that can win out to 6-700, and cease the load development. At my own local club range, we only shoot 300-700, and our annual OPM is 1 x 300 and 2 x 500.
I am shooting a new Bartlein barrel in 284 Win that is very, very accurate. I shot 90-7 out of 90 with it last weekend, at a Prize Meeting, to win the day 1 Sweepstakes and finished equal 4th on the main day, to win the Grand Aggregate for the overall event. Williada has helped me understand that I must develop a further load for longer ranges, because my barrel displays extremely neutral compensation . It is damned good out to 700 yds, but is almost guaranteed to fail at ranges longer than that. I trust his knowledge completely, and won't even try that current load at 800 plus.
So it's back to the drawing board, shooting more round robin groups with a chronograph on and plotting every single shot, looking for good tight groups with the slower shots landing highest.
So part of the answer to Rinso's question could possibly be that as most of us are effectively shooting an "untuned" load with zero positive compensation included in its development at those longer ranges, (ie it may well be superbly accurate out to 700... But its wheels will fall off past that) then the sheer ballistic advantage of a 7mm 180 gr Berger will see it consistently outperform the vast majority of 6mm and 6.5mm projectiles when shooting from 800 yards out to 1000 yards.
The few times that a non 7mm gets up at those longer ranges is possibly (a) an absolutely hummer barrel ...or (b) a very carefully developed long range load, put together by someone who either understood, or maybe just got lucky, with Positive Compensation.....or (c) a shooter capable of releasing near perfect shots consistently....or (d) a bit of luck......or (e) all of the above !
When you look at the names in F Open who are consistently in the Top Ten at Queens level events, and note the high percentage who choose a 7mm, it just can't be random.It sure as hell isn't just luck !
Every Queens I have ever been either shooting in, or closely watching results, is won or lost on the last day, shooting 800-1000 yards. And the same names keep cropping up in the Top Ten at the finish , with most of them shooting a 7mm.
Tony

[Rinso]

Alan Fraser is the webmaster at ozfclass.com , as well as being a member of the 2013 Australian F Open Team that brought home the Team Gold Medal from the 2013 F Class World Championships at Raton, NM in the USA. He is a 7mm/284 Shehane shooter himself.
He has done a statistical analysis of the Queens results (virtually a State Championship) for F Class Open and it is a statistical fact that the scores and average percentages (of the winners score) drops off dramatically after 700 yards.
Basically it is statistically proven that there are now a large number of F Open shooters with great scores out to 700 yards.......but that's where the wheels fall off for a huge percentage of competitors (me included) and from 800 to 1000 yards the results nosedive.
We are extremely fortunate to have had a poster called "Williada" take a strong interest in our sport and the ozfclass forum, over the past 18 months or so. Seddo knows who he is and what his knowledge levels are, and I am sure he will agree with me that Williada is a rare gem.
Anyway.....if i understand him correctly, Williada maintains that it's because a rifle can be tuned without POSITIVE COMPENSATION , to perform accurately out to 700 yards. Any rifle basically can and will have multiple tight, nodal tunes that will work out to 700 yards if the conditions are right (ie temp, humidity, elevation altitude, air pressure etc)
But from 800 yards to 1000 yards, understanding and including Positive Compensation is an important factor in develong an accurate load for "the longs". So effectively, most rifles need two loads to be developed...one for 300-700 yds and a second for 800-1000 yards.
The statistics that Alan Fraser has done seem to prove that far too many of us haven't done the extra work required to develop a "tuned" load specifically for the longs. The vast majority of Open Prize Meetings in my part of the world (SE Qld) are shot from 300-600 yards, and so we get a load that can win out to 6-700, and cease the load development. At my own local club range, we only shoot 300-700, and our annual OPM is 1 x 300 and 2 x 500.
I am shooting a new Bartlein barrel in 284 Win that is very, very accurate. I shot 90-7 out of 90 with it last weekend, at a Prize Meeting, to win the day 1 Sweepstakes and finished equal 4th on the main day, to win the Grand Aggregate for the overall event. Williada has helped me understand that I must develop a further load for longer ranges, because my barrel displays extremely neutral compensation . It is damned good out to 700 yds, but is almost guaranteed to fail at ranges longer than that. I trust his knowledge completely, and won't even try that current load at 800 plus.
So it's back to the drawing board, shooting more round robin groups with a chronograph on and plotting every single shot, looking for good tight groups with the slower shots landing highest.
So part of the answer to Rinso's question could possibly be that as most of us are effectively shooting an "untuned" load with zero positive compensation included in its development at those longer ranges, (ie it may well be superbly accurate out to 700... But its wheels will fall off past that) then the sheer ballistic advantage of a 7mm 180 gr Berger will see it consistently outperform the vast majority of 6mm and 6.5mm projectiles when shooting from 800 yards out to 1000 yards.
The few times that a non 7mm gets up at those longer ranges is possibly (a) an absolutely hummer barrel ...or (b) a very carefully developed long range load, put together by someone who either understood, or maybe just got lucky, with Positive Compensation.....or (c) a shooter capable of releasing near perfect shots consistently....or (d) a bit of luck......or (e) all of the above !
When you look at the names in F Open who are consistently in the Top Ten at Queens level events, and note the high percentage who choose a 7mm, it just can't be random.It sure as hell isn't just luck !
Every Queens I have ever been either shooting in, or closely watching results, is won or lost on the last day, shooting 800-1000 yards. And the same names keep cropping up in the Top Ten at the finish , with most of them shooting a 7mm.
Tony

Tony
Interesting ideas in that response, thanks.
I have met Allan Fraser and seen him shoot. I am sure his analysis is accurate as far as it goes. I am unaware of the Positive Compensation debate but it does raise a few more questions.

I have seen may times LRBR shooters smash out scores at 500m (550yards) then the next day with the same load and rifle smash out 1000 yards scores. What makes this more interesting is that those same guys smash out 300m scores as well with the same rifle and load. Whats more they do it at different ranges around the country and in different weather conditions, altitudes etc so why can they shoot 6mm's, 6.5mm's, 30 cal and even 7mm with a single load for 300-1000 ? as opposed to F Class ?
What would Allan's figures look like if we compared results at the longs with A grade TR shooters ie does Corbett have a different load for the 308 at the longs ? This would show a consistency to the yardage needing re-tuning of rifles which otherwise appears only in F Class (or is it that we have not looked elsewhere to see it?)
Do the F Standard and FTR results reflect the same variations ie accurate to 700 then fall away dramatically?
I am not having a dig at NRAA here simply curious as to why results are not the same as comparable matches in other disciplines.

[Brad Y]

I think alot of F class shooters do use the same load from 300-1000yds. I havent had any barrels that wouldnt shootTony has indicated that his barrel exhibits traits that an experienced shooter/loader/rifle tuner knows to cause problems at ranges longer than 700yds.

I too have spoken quite alot to this gentleman, who is very humble and wasnt sure if sharing the knowledge he has gained from working with fullbore shooting for most of his life would be welcomed. Some of the physics/maths that he has at his fingertips that he found only from going through hundreds of different barrels is unbelieveable. Ive actually saved quite alot of his articles and emails with his permission and use them for future reference. However I wont share any of them on here without his prior consent. Anyone is welcome to join the other forum to read it.

Furthermore, Ive tuned my 284 shehane barrel from an action that I have recently sold using his methods. Firstly I was able to identify what desirable traits he looks for in a barrel via some basic 100m load testing. Once this happened it was easy enough to just work a load in an OCW style method, adjust seating depth and go shoot. First shoot I used it was at 600m. It shot a 60 with 7 X's (super centers). I shot it at the long ranges of the city of subiaco meet at Swanbourne range only a few months later and it shot a 59 at 800yds and a 60 at 900yds. All very flat in elevation. I then took it home and shot it at 100m and had a 5 shot group in the high 1's. Now that action is gone, I still have that barrel which is only a few hundred shots old and its waiting for my new action to arrive from the USA later this year.

At the end of the day alot of competitive shooters are shooting the meetings that have anywhere from 50-100 rounds per weekend. Taking different barrels/calibers that are optimised for shorter ranges reduces wear on the special long range barrels that every long range shooter (whether its BR or F class) strives to find. Quite often there are conditions that will warrant the use of a 7mm at 300-600yds. But when its not justified and the shooter is confident in their wind reading capability to use a smaller caliber rifle, then they can save their good long range barrels for when they need those extra few inches up their sleeve at the long ranges if it blows up. It saves having to clean barrels halfway through a shoot and saves risking a barrel fouling halfway through a long range string when theres only X's keeping you above the rest of the competition.

All LR shooting is heading into this mentality I believe. I speak to a few guys in the USA that run 2 rifles for BR now. IF there is any rough/switching conditions they will make the job easier for themselves and pull out a 300WSM instead of a dasher or BRX.