Group analysis from the LR Experts

[kjd]

You guys are way over my head now. I love the knowledge that is available on this site!

[Camel]

You guys are way over my head now. I love the knowledge that is available on this site!

That would have to be the most diplomatic way of telling them to stop jabbering shit I have seen mate, well done.

[Tony Z]

Onya camel

The propaganda claim comes from rubbish like the new SF calculator. There suddenly seems to be a fix on an SF of at least 1.5 for whatever reason. I had this debate on another thread recently where the comment was made about over stabilization (over spinning). Put simply the bullet is spun too fast and could start to lose accuracy from core slump or jacket failure. That's it.
Now if you go by the new calculator and spin a six mil 105/107 to over 260.000 RPM, and you will, most other bullets manufactured may come apart or lose a shot here or there. But the Berger won't because of its new thicker jacket in the Target line. Clever ploy but doesn't take into consideration bullet dispersion for CG offset. Anyway you sell the SF tool with a lot of clever numbers and statistics of "real" world testing so people opt for the 7 1/2 or 7 twist just to be safe, cough cough, or there abouts. At those spin rates Sierras, Noslers etc may come apart. So logic says (implies) Berger makes a better bullet. Now that's a really great marketing strategy at work especially when you add in the decision of J4 to not sell the new thicker jacket to custom bullet makers. Maybe the time is right for another jacket maker of worth to come onto the scene.
But i say, let them run the 7 twist and Bergers. Run the Sierra or better still the Copperhead in an 8.5 as i and others have for eons and we will see what works. Greater than 6BR speeds go to a 9 twist.

There was a time when Berger only offered the one 30 cal pill in the 210 VLD. On the box and in the literature it stated "8 twist or faster". Then came along a bunch of guys all well known to each other called Pendegraft, Ellertson and Tooley. Somewhere over time they won quite a share of matches with the 210s. What isn't told is that they started doing it with 11 twists and in the latters case a 12 twist. The die was cast and many went to the new revolution and everyone had a ball while the bullet batches lasted. Shortly after the literature said "11 twist or faster". What a revelation!! When i calculated the SF on those figures way back then, i came up with something in the order of 1.0xx. A figure well short of 1.5 and one near on identical to that of my own old and departed 6BR using Copperheads. Go figure. So now it's full circle and the 210s will have to be shot in 8.5s or faster because all the world records set with the 210s don't mean shit and someone is convinced that he is smarter than all before him. Now that's a real dumb marketing ploy where the records defeat your new SF tool.

The spin rate debate has been done to death over on BRC. So much so that the old stagers have left to just shoot, win some matches or just up and die. The new wiz kids enter into pissing contests about phone apps and BCs. G7 i believe. G1 just don't cut it anymore. Like i say all the time now, we are just the custodians of all the records until the others decide to come and shoot and show the dummies like me how it's done.

[Rinso]

You guys are way over my head now. I love the knowledge that is available on this site!

Not at all Keith. You just break it down to what you need to know.
I commented earlier in this thread I think on the twist rate of your rifle. The information here is relevant to all shooters and is not beyond any of you.
What both Tony and Jeff raise is the real world issues and effects on shooting as compared to the effect of marketing of products, be they the manufacturers stated BC of a bullet, which as Jeff rightly points out is less than accurate in many cases. Why do they claim higher BC's? because shooters are fed information which suggests that higher BC's are required for performance. This is simply not correct and there is a huge amount of actual evidence from match results that show that.
Good examples would be aJR's 187BIB's, a flat base bullet with an average BC which seems to have broken the mould for results both here and in the USA.
The SF things are about marketing the suggestion that you need tight twist barrels is also just smoke and mirrors rubbish. You need the slowest twist rate which will stabilise the bullet for accuracy, again tons of evidence for this.
Tony points out that the 6BR runs 103-107 bullets very well with an 8.5 twist rate yet you wont get too many manufacturers advocating anything less than 8 twist. Doesn't seem like much but when chasing extreme accuracy it does make a difference.
I again reference aJR using a 1:13 twist to run 187 BIB's in a 30 cal barrel as a prime example.
I used a 6x257wby for a while and using the recommended 8 twist could not keep a bullet together at anything other than slow velocity for the case capacity. A 10 twist would work in certain conditions but could become unstable depending on weather and such. A 9.5 twist was wonderful, providing accuracy and speed for good results. The same applied to my 260AI no 8 twist here a nice 9 twist thanks.
The information is great for anyone who is buying a rifle, re-barrelling or wildcatting as it allows them to make informed decisions based on what has actually happened rather than relying on the marketing hype and other information designed to send you in certain directions.
I am sure all those who read these posts by Jeff & Tony will come away with some greater insights into what they really need to do to gain accuracy. Disregard the marketing and look at what works.
As Jeff pointed out the best bullets are those that sort and shoot well.
Anyone can grab a result now and then but when guys like these, who have been able to maintain the standard over prolonged periods comment on things its always worth the read.