Powder Storage and How much is too much?

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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

deye223 wrote:both my LGS say 25KG and a wc ticket for more
Hi Mate, I won't say they are wrong but it doesn't match up with the legislation. Big distinction between a dealer and someone with a firearms license.

Vic police also make it confusing by mentioning 20Kg of propellant and 5Kg of propellant gunpowder. Two different things, probably with different explosive classification numbers.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

Stuff in italics are my words! I've done a bunch of digging trying to find the specific legislation covering Victoria.

From a Police perspective they only worry about Licensed Firearm Dealers holding powder, primers etc BUT Worksafe Victoria rules would also apply. So, for firearms license holders (not dealers) only the Worksafe requirements appear to apply.


Victoria Police: Licensed Firearms Dealers

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.as ... t_ID=34446

How much ammunition can I store, sell, collect and import?

Licensed firearm dealers can sell, possess and store any quantity of cartridge ammunition but larger amounts of cartridge ammunition store have greater storage requirements. Dealers can also import any amount of cartridge ammunition as long as they have an import permit from LRD.

Licensed ammunition collectors can store and collect any amount of cartridge ammunition and can also import any amount of cartridge ammunition as long as they have an import permit from LRD.

Licensed firearm dealers can sell any amount of gunpowder and propellants provided they have a Worksafe Licence to Sell Explosives. Although dealers can also store any amount of gunpowder or propellants, they must have a WorkSafe Licence to Store Explosives in order to store more than 20kg of propellants or more than 5kg of propellant gun powder. Dealers must also have a WorkSafe Licence to Import Explosives to import any amount of gunpowder and propellants.

Worksafe Victoria: Licence to store explosives

http://www.vwa.vic.gov.au/__data/assets ... xpl_P3.pdf

A licence to store explosives allows a person to:
• store explosives of the type specified and in quantities greater than those shown in column 1 in the table on the next page but not more than the quantities shown in column 2 (‘medium storage’), or
• store more than the maximum quantities in column 2. This quantity must be stored in a magazine in accordance with the requirements of AS 2187.1 Explosives – Storage, transport and use – Storage

...we're only interested in the column 1 bit, unless you are stockpiling for the end of the world. ....and a bit lower (noting I've trimmed this to show just the relevant bits)....

A person does not require a licence to store explosives if they:
• are a licensed firearms dealer storing cartridge ammunition
• hold a licence to manufacture explosives at a premises and store explosives of the type and quantity specified in that licence at those premises
• are storing consumer fireworks that are not more than the quantity shown in column 1
• are storing distress signals in a quantity not more than the quantity shown in column 1
• are storing industrial safety cartridges less than amounts shown in column 1
• hold a Licence to Use Blasting Explosives and only store the type of explosives they are authorised to use and in a quantity not more than that in column 1
• hold a Licence to Sell Explosives and only store the type of explosives they are licensed to sell and in a quantity not more than that in column 1
• hold a Licence to Use Fireworks as a Pyrotechnician and the fireworks are of a type that they are authorised by the licence to use and in a quantity not more than that in column 1 or if the fireworks specified in the licence are stored in accordance with the requirements of the Regulations and for not more than seven days
• holds a firearm licence and is storing safety cartridges, primers or propellants in quantities not more than those in column 1

In the above, not you *DO NOT* need a license for the amounts shown in column 1 *IF* you hold a firearms license. This brings us to Column 1. As the table is hard to reproduce here, I'll cut it down to the relevant bits.

Aggregate maximum quantity by type in any storage

Type of explosive: Propellant Gunpowder of Classification Code 1.1D
Column 1 (Maximum quantity allowed without a licence): 5 kg

Type of explosive: Propellants of Classification Code 1.1C and 1.3C
Column 1 (Maximum quantity allowed without a licence): 20 kg

Type of explosive: Safety cartridges (or industrial safety cartridges) of Classification Code 1.4S
Column 1 (Maximum quantity allowed without a licence): 40,000 in number

Type of explosive: Primers of Classification Code 1.4S
Column 1 (Maximum quantity allowed without a licence): 10,000 in number

and just to add some more info from the bottom of their Information Sheet

The information presented in this information sheet is intended for general use only. It should not be viewed as a definitive guide to the law, and should be read in conjunction with the Occupational Health and Safety Act 2004 and the Dangerous Goods Act 1985.Whilst every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy and completeness of the information sheet, the advice contained herein may not apply in every circumstance. Accordingly, the Victorian WorkCover Authority cannot be held responsible, and extends no warranties as to the suitability of the information for any particular purpose or actions taken by third parties as a result of information contained in the information sheet.WorkSafe Victoria is a trading name of the Victorian WorkCover Authority.

Note that the Dangerous Goods Act (Vic version) only mentions gunpowder 3 times. Defining it as an explosive (separating it from blasting powder) and implying a 'genuine need' (otherwise an offence). See below.

Dangerous Goods Act 1985 http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domin ... 89a081.pdf

So in summary for Vic:

If you hold a firearms license and are NOT a dealer, you can store without any special license:

5Kg of "propellant gunpowder" Classification Code 1.1D, <----UPDATED
20Kg of "propellant" Classification Code 1.1C and 1.3C, <----UPDATED
40,000 rounds generally Classification Code 1.4S, <----UPDATED
10,000 primers generally Classification Code 1.4S. <----UPDATED

If anyone can add to, or clarify this with links, please do so for the benefit of all of us.

UPDATED to include the specific classifications. Note these classification numbers are standardised across all states, but it may be worth checking the classification of what you're buying!

Below is quoting NSW definitions, but as the classification code is standardised it's a good starting point


http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/formspu ... s_5258.pdf
Ammunition, percussion caps and capped cartridge cases may be classified as explosives of Class 1.4S
Powders for firearms may be classified as Class 1.1C or Class 1.3C (propellant powder or smokeless powder), or Class 1.1D (gunpowder or black powder).
Last edited by The Raven on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by stinkitup »

Wow Raven great work there, it is hard to cut through the written BS to actually understand how and it what manner this stuff actually affects us sometimes.

40 000 rounds aye thats a few, will have to keep stocking up.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

stinkitup wrote:Wow Raven great work there, it is hard to cut through the written BS to actually understand how and it what manner this stuff actually affects us sometimes.

40 000 rounds aye thats a few, will have to keep stocking up.
When I got stuck into shooting I was hearing lots of stories about different things (mag capacities, safe storage etc) and most weren't backed up (or state specific). That's not to say I have it all correct here, just reading the legislation and trying to find out what's in black & white. I'm open to any corrections and clarifications.

Oh, when you reach 40,000 rounds send me the extras...
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by stinkitup »

Yes you hear all sorts. Even coppers who sprout stuff and I have said have you read the legislation etc has been a while but I remember reading it a faor bit a few yeara ago when setting up my storage.

Thanks again.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

UPDATED: 4th September 2014 to reflect new information regarding the amount of powder you can have without a license. Note I've changed the primary reference from WorkCover to the NSW
Explosives Regulation 2013 (2013 No 476)

Comments by me in italics

I've just done some research for NSW and found the information readily available, so there won't be a huge post here (hopefully)

NSW Police make a nice info sheet as below.


NSW Firearms Registry
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass ... y_2014.pdf

Are there restrictions on the quantity of ammunition that can be stored?

Yes, no more than 12kg of propellant powder and/or gunpowder can be stored. If the amount of propellant powder and/or gunpowder exceeds 12kg, a licence from Workcover is required.

I'd be interested to know the difference between "propellant powder" and "gunpowder" as Vic Police use similar terms, and neither define it. However, NSW treats both the same volume wise (12Kg)

Explosive Regulation 2013 under the Explosives Act 2003 for NSW
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/ ... 013521.pdf

48 Ammunition
(1) A person who is a licensed firearms dealer under the Firearms Act 1996 is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess, store, transport, sell or supply:

(a) ammunition, or
(b) percussion caps, or
(c) not more than 12 kg of propellant powder.

(2) A person who holds a licence or a permit under the Firearms Act 1996 (other than a firearms collector licence) that authorises the person to possess or use a firearm is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess, use, store or transport:

(a) ammunition, or
(b) percussion caps, or
(c) not more than 12 kg of propellant powder.

(3) A person who holds an ammunition collection permit under the Firearms Act 1996 is not required to be authorised by a licence in order to possess or store ammunition that is authorised to be possessed under the permit.

Basically, anymore than 12Kg of "propellant powder" will need a WorkCover license.

How simple was that compared to the Vic legislation? Of course, NSW has silly laws regarding the ability to purchase ammunition...

Note that there are also specific storage rules depending on the type of powders, primers etc being stored. That's for another thread...

If you hold a firearms license and are NOT a dealer, you can store without any special license:

12Kg of powder,
unlimited rounds,
unlimited primers.
However, it must be for your firearm(s) AND stored appropriately...
Last edited by The Raven on Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by Seddo »

Raven,

Worksafe requirements only apply to workplaces that are registered for workcover. ie employ people. If your self employed or a normal person the requirements aren't applicable.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by Tezza »

Many thanks for all the hard work finding that out Raven. So my query is, for Victoria at least, if the storage of powder for non-dealers isn't a VicPol concern but a Work Cover one, then can the Police even ping you for having in excess of 5kg of powder should they do a safe inspection and happen to notice your supply? I could just imagine an over zealous DFO attempting to nab someone with greater than 5kg's of powder should they ask to see their ammo storage (where I keep my powder). Anybody have any experience with a situation like that?
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by Camel »

I think the difference between Propellant powder and gunpowder is the colour, black powder is an explosive where as normal powder is a propellant. That will teach those who dabble in the black arts. :twisted:

When police do a storage inspection, it is my understanding that they are doing a firearms storage check, not for anything else.

I still wonder where it states in NSW regs that they are able to do a firearms inspection, I have had a look for it on the registry site, but couldn't find it. I may be blind :shock: When they have rung me in the past to do inspections, they have only ever said they wanted to do a storage inspection, not the actual firearms. I don't argue the point, but it would be interesting.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by B4408 »

Seddo, from 2011 the definition for a business changed to include anyone who conducts a business or undertaking, so self employed people are now covered the same as any other workplace/business. There is a lot of other details as well that changed in the WHS Act 2011. You may not come under much scrutiny but you are under their jurisdiction and most self employed don't realise.
http://smallbusiness.workcover.nsw.gov. ... tions.aspx

Not giving a lecture just don't want anyone to get caught out with wrong info.
Use to be self employed myself now on a payroll.

As you said the family home is not generally a workplace but parts of it could be.

Raven, some great info you have put together. Oh for 40,000 rounds and time to shoot it.

Perhaps this thread should be made a sticky.

Bruce
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

Seddo wrote:Raven,

Worksafe requirements only apply to workplaces that are registered for workcover. ie employ people. If your self employed or a normal person the requirements aren't applicable.
Interesting point but the work Health and Safety Act 2011 (NSW) States:

(1) For the purposes of this Act, a person conducts a business or undertaking:
(a) whether the person conducts the business or undertaking alone or with others, and
(b) whether or not the business or undertaking is conducted for profit or gain.


Yes, WorkCover (as in the insurance) is just one part, and would apply to employers. However the WorkCover authorities powers also extends to OH&S and beyond, right down to licensing and individuals ("a person").

For example, WorkCover NSW is the statutory body of the Explosives Act.
Worksafe Vic has responsibility for the Dangerous Goods Act.

I'm not disagreeing with WorkCover focusing on businesses (employer and employees) but their powers are far broader than registered businesses. Something most people aren't aware of.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

Tezza wrote:Many thanks for all the hard work finding that out Raven. So my query is, for Victoria at least, if the storage of powder for non-dealers isn't a VicPol concern but a Work Cover one, then can the Police even ping you for having in excess of 5kg of powder should they do a safe inspection and happen to notice your supply? I could just imagine an over zealous DFO attempting to nab someone with greater than 5kg's of powder should they ask to see their ammo storage (where I keep my powder). Anybody have any experience with a situation like that?
I wouldn't know BUT while researching this I do recall reading that Police can be agents for WorkCover. Presumably, this is on an 'as required' basis with WorkCover officials also being in attendance. Of course, this could differ by state.

I was asked about my ammunition storage during an inspection, but at that time I had zero ammunition...
Last edited by The Raven on Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by The Raven »

Camel wrote:I think the difference between Propellant powder and gunpowder is the colour, black powder is an explosive where as normal powder is a propellant. That will teach those who dabble in the black arts. :twisted:

When police do a storage inspection, it is my understanding that they are doing a firearms storage check, not for anything else.

I still wonder where it states in NSW regs that they are able to do a firearms inspection, I have had a look for it on the registry site, but couldn't find it. I may be blind :shock: When they have rung me in the past to do inspections, they have only ever said they wanted to do a storage inspection, not the actual firearms. I don't argue the point, but it would be interesting.
In Vic they call to arrange an inspection and do check every firearm serial number against their records.

Theoretically the police (or other authority - eg. Park Ranger) can ask at any time to see your license and inspect any firearms you have on you. That's a different situation...
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by Seddo »

B4408 wrote:Seddo, from 2011 the definition for a business changed to include anyone who conducts a business or undertaking, so self employed people are now covered the same as any other workplace/business. There is a lot of other details as well that changed in the WHS Act 2011. You may not come under much scrutiny but you are under their jurisdiction and most self employed don't realise.
http://smallbusiness.workcover.nsw.gov. ... tions.aspx

Not giving a lecture just don't want anyone to get caught out with wrong info.
Use to be self employed myself now on a payroll.

As you said the family home is not generally a workplace but parts of it could be.

Raven, some great info you have put together. Oh for 40,000 rounds and time to shoot it.

Perhaps this thread should be made a sticky.

Bruce
In Victoria you cant have workcover if you are a sole trader or partnership. I haven't looked into the workplace safety side of it yet but it looks like i have to.

http://www.vwa.vic.gov.au/insurance-and ... d-a-policy
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Re: Powder Storage and How much is too much?

Post by B4408 »

Seddo, apologies. For some reason I thought you were in southern NSW, Vic may have very different requirements.
Bruce
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