Question time for Camel and Missed

[Flip]

My question to you both is what would you do again given the chance. 20 Vt Or 20/22

Use for the rifle will be spotlighting.

The plan at the moment is to find a CZ 527 and re barrel and restock if it has the hog back style classic stock.

I'm looking at ordering a pre fit barrel in the PAC Nor group buy. Ive got the profile ordering info sorted. But may just get a blank if I can't make up my mind. Need to find the action ASAP I guess.

I have a 204 R but have been bitten so one more 20 can't hurt.......... can it ?


Trying to do as much home work as possible to try and nail Down exactly which one to go with.

I've been searching out and reading as many of the old post that both of you have posted about you respective builds and results with Missed's 20 VT and Camels 20/222.

I've narrowed the choice down to these two as firm but with the 20 PPC in the back of my mind still. If I can find a 527 7.62 x 39 at the right price then this would be the duck nuts me thinks.


I'm interested to here your thoughts and experiences

Cheers.


Flip

[MISSED]

Well you asked so here is my 2 cents worth.

Making Brass is a no brainer for the 20/222 Just use a 222 "s" type die with the appropriate bushing even the 222 seater will work very well.
Lapua are making 221 Fireball brass with a release date in April for the US market.
Nosler have been making 221 fireball brass for a while but the importer will only bring it in as a special order.

There is one importer for both brands so do not hold your breath for them to bring either in.

If good "quality" brass was available in 221 fireball a single pass through a 20 VT full length die and a neck turn is all that is needed.Making your own is a labor of love but to quote Tepee "Its all part of the journey."

Dies for the 20/222 are far far cheaper than the 20 VT at the moment
A triple 2 case will feed well from a CZ 527 mag be it 222,223 and 204.( I must add not as well as a small Sako action )
Unless you can find a 221 fireball for a donor the 20 VT does not do so well.
Before you bite Trevor remember I have used your 17 Furball and while it feeds ok loading the mag is a PITA.

I am using 18.7 grains of 2207 for around 3800 fps in the 20 VT.The 204R is using 10 grains more powder to achieve 2-300fps more velocity.

Now I have said that I will add I would build a 20/222 with a 30 Degree shoulder and no other changes.

[Flip]

Cheers Missed,

That's the sort of info I'm after.


Thanks again


Flip

[trevort]

well it may be a PITA to load the mag (especially the fifth round) but once they are in there they feed with 100% reliability. If you chose the shorter case, make sure you get a 222 (if you cant find a 221) as a donor as the magazine is shorter.

the guns and game guys did a 17m4 on a 223 527 and described feeding as 95% and wished then had of used a 222.

I have both

[Jacko9]

A question for you little 20 cal users, may also add to the discussion.... What kind of noise difference is there between your 20-222 and 20 vartargs to say your average spotlighter, ie- 223, 22-250? A future project basically as I have money will be a replacement for my 17 hmr, but in a centerfire! As I love to fiddle with loads and that sort of thing, plus, I can run ally little rifles off the same platform, the cz 527!

[MISSED]

The 20/222 and VT seem very similar in noise but the 17 Mach1V is very notiecably quieter than either and a very very very very very long way from the volume of noise put out by the 22-250

[Teepee]

Jocko9
The 20vt is the quietest of all my 20's but then it's only 18g's of powder compared to the others.
I have had a few to play with and can say that I'm amazed at the performance that can be achieved from this little case. If I was starting from scratch - as you seem to be , then I would definitely go with the 20vt. It will do everything that the others will do out to 250y and probably more in the hands of someone who can shoot well.
I'm getting around the 3750fps with the 32g vmax with that 18g load and as Missed has stated could probably get a bit more out of it but accuracy seems good. I was getting the same with my 20 practical with a lot more powder and noise so am pretty impressed with this little round so far. There is more options on the 221 FB case, one with a 40deg shoulder and straight case, reportedly they are achieving close to 3900fps w/o any pressure signs. I could be tempted to try one of those down the track but for now will be trying to get the best from this one.
Will be interested to hear what you have decided.
Teepee

[Camel]

G'day Flip, to put it simply I would stay with the 20/222, I contemplated the Vartarg after reading mega amounts of information on it, and only a little on the 20/222, went that way for the following reasons, and quite possible some more that I cant think of at the moment:
1. I had a 223 sized Zastava action that I was going to re-barrel to 223 (for Missed), it is an old action from the late 80's, that had been used and abused, one of the original ones that had that horrible plastic stock. For mine it would feed the 222 based case more reliably than a 221 based case, with the added bonus of plenty of magazine length.
2. 222 brass is available from every brass manufacturer, therefore I wouldn't have to scrabble around trying to find some good brass, less forming (a biggie), and if I lose a case or two out the ute window, I wouldn't worry about spending too much time looking for them.
3. forming was simply a matter of running new cases into a Super simplex 222 neck size die, and then through my bushing die, leaving a small shoulder at the base of the neck, (nice tight fit in the chamber for fire forming), trimming to length then loading them up
4. Didn't need any neck turning
5. 222 based wildcats seem to be pretty easy to get good accuracy from,
6. I like "different", there aren't too many 20/222's around, unlike the common as dog shit Vartarg.

I never really had any inclination of getting a 20 cal, however a couple of articles, mainly the one I read in G&G about the 20 Sprinter, got my interest, then there was getting involved here and other forums, and one thing led to another, and bingo, another poor unfortunate trapped in the 20 cal wildcat web. The two main "bad" influences on here would have to be Missed and Johno1.

With regard to your action, while the CZ is a very nice little action, with a good trigger, etc, I have gone away from the detachable magazines, they just don't do it for me. The Zastava with their internal magazine suit my needs more, they are a lot cheaper than the CZ, and can be had as an action only option, although the whole rifles are not much more, with the added bonus of being able to off load the bits you don't want, I sold the stock off my new rifle in 223, in about 30 minutes, and when I get around to re barrelling the rifle, doubt I will have much trouble selling the old barrel, of course the same can be said with selling the bits on a CZ as well.

I guess it all comes down to personal preference really. Which ever way you go, I think you will be happy, but there will always be that little nagging voice in the back of your mind, saying "What if....................." or "Jeez that little case looks cool"

[Flip]

Thanks gents for the reply's I greatly appreciate it.


That little voice never let's up dose it

Flip

[MISSED]

Thanks gents for the reply's I greatly appreciate it.


That little voice never let's up dose it

Flip

EVER

[trevort]

lack of funds let you pretend to deaf but its always there!

[B4408]

Flip
Great questions. The same thoughts have been going through my head lately, Your requirements are similar to mine. I can see a 20 VT in my future. I'm new to custom work.

The questions I have are for a budget build is the following feasable.
Buy a new Howa in 204, some info in Howa thread, have the chamber shortend and reamed to VT or 20/222. Uses a medium length action but price would be favourable.

Do the same with a CZ, magazine has some issues depending on whose opinion you take. A bit dearer option but uses a micro action.

A Sako would be nice but $$$

So guys what are your thoughts.

Regards
Bruce

[Jacko9]

Flip
Great questions. The same thoughts have been going through my head lately, Your requirements are similar to mine. I can see a 20 VT in my future. I'm new to custom work.

The questions I have are for a budget build is the following feasable.
Buy a new Howa in 204, some info in Howa thread, have the chamber shortend and reamed to VT or 20/222. Uses a medium length action but price would be favourable.

Do the same with a CZ, magazine has some issues depending on whose opinion you take. A bit dearer option but uses a micro action.

A Sako would be nice but $$$

So guys what are your thoughts.

Regards
Bruce

I'm not sure why the cz would have issues? Id of thought the controlled round feeding would negate the potential feeding issues, although, it's not much for someone to run a dummy round through their cz with a 223 length mag, I'd be happy to do it with mine if someone was on the precipice of building one, but it was a deciding factor for them. To be honest, I'd of thought the push feed, mid length, internal mag howa setup would have more trouble?

[Glenn]

If you want to build a 20VT or even a 20-222 the Sako L461 A1 is a great action to use.

My 17 Fireball feeds great.

I made my FB cases from Rem 222.
I have a hundred new Nosler cases to size down but I will do them once I have been though the Rem cases!

I already have a 20PPC so I went with 17FB instead of the 20VT.
Did not want calibre overlap!

Glenn

[Camel]

Jacko, my only beef with the magazines on the CZ rifles are that they hang way down, I like my magazines to be flat on the bottom so they sit nicely on the window rest. As the original post asked about using it as a spotlight rifle, I gave my opinion based on that. My advice on building a Vartarg on a CZ action would be to get one for a 221, or a 222.
As far as controlled round feed, I personally think that it doesn't even come into the argument with regards a dedicated spotlight/varmint rifle. On a hunting or dangerous game rifle, yeah, maybe, but it wouldn't sway me one way or the other. My hunting rifles are all Mausers of one sort or another, I just like them, not specifically for the CRF ability. I personally think it is a bit over rated as a feature on a normal hunting rifle for the average punter, more likely gun writers looking for something extra to add into their reviews because there are only so many normal functions of a rifle that can be said over and over again.

Don't get me wrong, the CZ is a great little action but I'd only rate it third on my choice for building a vartarg on.