I am in the process of putting together an F Standard rifle in 308 as these days F Open leaves me cold. I will be using a 34 inch Krieger barrel that will have a stretcher tube placed on it. Is this tube addition going to cause me grief with protests as was recently seen down at the Nationals with one particular rifle singled out over its barrel configuration. Speak now or forever hold your piece.
Tony Z.
Question for all F Standard shooters.
Tony,
I have only a rough idea of what a stretcher tube is, but believe it would be protested, probably on the grounds of giving unfair advantage. Whether it would be upheld would depend on how much the range officer on the day knows about stretcher tubes (probably even less than me).
So I'll put it this way - if you are keen to make trouble by testing the limits of the rules and upsetting a lot of shooters by using accuracy technology that simply isn't warranted for the targets used, then its a great idea!!
Alan
I have only a rough idea of what a stretcher tube is, but believe it would be protested, probably on the grounds of giving unfair advantage. Whether it would be upheld would depend on how much the range officer on the day knows about stretcher tubes (probably even less than me).
So I'll put it this way - if you are keen to make trouble by testing the limits of the rules and upsetting a lot of shooters by using accuracy technology that simply isn't warranted for the targets used, then its a great idea!!
Alan
Contrary to what you may think Alan, i wish to avoid any confrontation with any shooters and any RO. I just want to avoid any possible protest before i finish building the gun.
Put simply a stretcher tube is an alloy tube that slides over a barrel and butts up to a shoulder, or in my case the action, and is fixed under tension by a threaded nut at the muzzle end. Basically it allows me to choose a velocity rather than a node, but the end result is that the barrel does not become more accurate, it just shoots tighter groups at the higher end of the velocity capable with the cartridge where normally things start to open up a bit. Basically this system is a tuner without all the nob turning. I believe tuners are allowed in FS.
My other option is to fit a 1.25 inch parallel barrel also 34 inches long possibly fluted to get into wieght. Is this also gonig to fit into the unfair advantage category? If so, please tell me now.
I will try to post a picture of a tube gun or barrel shortly so you can see what i am talking of.
Tony Z.
Put simply a stretcher tube is an alloy tube that slides over a barrel and butts up to a shoulder, or in my case the action, and is fixed under tension by a threaded nut at the muzzle end. Basically it allows me to choose a velocity rather than a node, but the end result is that the barrel does not become more accurate, it just shoots tighter groups at the higher end of the velocity capable with the cartridge where normally things start to open up a bit. Basically this system is a tuner without all the nob turning. I believe tuners are allowed in FS.
My other option is to fit a 1.25 inch parallel barrel also 34 inches long possibly fluted to get into wieght. Is this also gonig to fit into the unfair advantage category? If so, please tell me now.
I will try to post a picture of a tube gun or barrel shortly so you can see what i am talking of.
Tony Z.
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HiWall
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And then they look for anything to protest about??Rinso wrote:Tony Z,
It will be completly fine anyway you do it as long as you don't win .. it seems that you can do almost anything and its ok until you start winning.
Rinso
Tony, does the stretcher tube work the same way as the old Dan Wesson switch barrel revolvers, with a barrel 'nut' that varies longitudinal tension on the barrel. Have always had doubts about that system as I feel it must, in some way, impart some sort of twisting force on the barrel as well. Tighter the barrel the more 'twist'?
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
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HiWall,
Nothing has changed .. they still argue endlessly about rules and at the same time wonder why they have trouble attracting new shooters. ???
One of the things I like about LR Benchrest is the rules are basic and there is no debate and everyone is happy to help a new guy out ..
The best rule in Fly is rule 10 Anyone found not having fun will be disqualified.
We compete certainly but I have never finished behind someone and had any reason to gripe, complain or protest .. they won they shot better on the day ... I'll beat them next time.
cheers
Rinso
Nothing has changed .. they still argue endlessly about rules and at the same time wonder why they have trouble attracting new shooters. ???
One of the things I like about LR Benchrest is the rules are basic and there is no debate and everyone is happy to help a new guy out ..
The best rule in Fly is rule 10 Anyone found not having fun will be disqualified.
We compete certainly but I have never finished behind someone and had any reason to gripe, complain or protest .. they won they shot better on the day ... I'll beat them next time.
cheers
Rinso
I'm sorry to see the amount of resentment towards F-Class. Its not what shooting needs. Tony, why don't you reconsider F-Open - the rules are more basic and relaxed. I'm not sure how much more accurate a stretcher tube will make your rifle, but I can tell you that with or without it, one of your rifles will be overkill in F-Std. The smallest 6 ring (for maximum score) is a full minute of angle at 300 yds. At some of the longer ranges its almost 1.5 MOA. You can get a possible 60 with almost anything if you get the wind right.
So if you won, everyone would complain that you had an unfair advantage (that's human nature), and if you couldn't handle the wind and crashed, they'd say you can't shoot. If I was in your shoes, I'd either shoot in Open, or just build a good reliable F-Std rifle and rely on your shooting skills.
Alan
So if you won, everyone would complain that you had an unfair advantage (that's human nature), and if you couldn't handle the wind and crashed, they'd say you can't shoot. If I was in your shoes, I'd either shoot in Open, or just build a good reliable F-Std rifle and rely on your shooting skills.
Alan
Some pics as promised.
The pics posted show the old Omark action i have used to day dot with a recycled Sendero stock and ever reliable T10 Weaver. All i want to do is upgrade a bit, still use the old Omark and Weaver, but get a new barrel and stock that is a bit more user friendly. The photos of the stretched barrel are from my very first attempt in the mid 90s with my old 284 Fly barrel. I do things a little different now but the end result is very similar with the only difference being that there is no step in the barrel as the tube directly mates to the action face via a stepped washer of sorts. This allows the barrel to be rechambered without a step needing to be considered beforehand.
The tuners are something that i frigged around with years ago and found them to be variable at best, but with perserverance they did work well. The problem is that by the time you get the right "tune", the barrels life is diminished. The tubes i fit now i do consider as tuners of sorts. Very simple ones.
At no time has a tube fitted to a barrel given smaller groups than the same barrel without the tube. The difference is that the velocity can be chosen, definetly at the top end for those shooting LR, within the guidelines of the cartridges safety limits and the group does not suffer greatly.
Tony Z.
The pics posted show the old Omark action i have used to day dot with a recycled Sendero stock and ever reliable T10 Weaver. All i want to do is upgrade a bit, still use the old Omark and Weaver, but get a new barrel and stock that is a bit more user friendly. The photos of the stretched barrel are from my very first attempt in the mid 90s with my old 284 Fly barrel. I do things a little different now but the end result is very similar with the only difference being that there is no step in the barrel as the tube directly mates to the action face via a stepped washer of sorts. This allows the barrel to be rechambered without a step needing to be considered beforehand.
The tuners are something that i frigged around with years ago and found them to be variable at best, but with perserverance they did work well. The problem is that by the time you get the right "tune", the barrels life is diminished. The tubes i fit now i do consider as tuners of sorts. Very simple ones.
At no time has a tube fitted to a barrel given smaller groups than the same barrel without the tube. The difference is that the velocity can be chosen, definetly at the top end for those shooting LR, within the guidelines of the cartridges safety limits and the group does not suffer greatly.
Tony Z.
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woob614271
- 17Rem
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The rule/readers/interpreters/benders are a major reason I dropped out of ISU and later IPSC. I also call these shooters 'almost champions'; I'm not in it to win at all costs, just mainly to compete and definitely let Rule 10 apply.
It's an honour and a privilege to watch the real top shooters do their stuff eg Bruce Scott in bigbore, my mate PK in just about anything he tries, ajR and TonyZ up here on their homeground at the fly, 600 and 1000 are some examples; there are plenty more we all know.
my point is, tonyZ, build the best rig you can without risking their anger, and flog their asses off. You've my total support whatever you do.
the WOOB.
PS. try an email to Phil Mastin for clarification on the sttetcher business, he builds so many top bigbore rifles he would surely know.
It's an honour and a privilege to watch the real top shooters do their stuff eg Bruce Scott in bigbore, my mate PK in just about anything he tries, ajR and TonyZ up here on their homeground at the fly, 600 and 1000 are some examples; there are plenty more we all know.
my point is, tonyZ, build the best rig you can without risking their anger, and flog their asses off. You've my total support whatever you do.
the WOOB.
PS. try an email to Phil Mastin for clarification on the sttetcher business, he builds so many top bigbore rifles he would surely know.
Alan i do apologise far any anti F Class sentiment. That is another issue that has to be dealt with in another way.
As to why i wish to build a new F Standard rifle is really very simple. I do so much shooting that requires lots of time batching and grading and meplat cutting and weighing of charges etc, that the thought of just throwing charges directly into a case and picking a 155 from a box and seating it as the factory made it, is at the moment very appealing to me. The tube barrel allows a lot of component variation within its simplicity that still makes the whole thing competitive. A very well built rifle based on BR ideas would be probably more competitive, but i don't need or want that right now. I don't want to go to the range hoping that the weather is good so i can do some load developement. All i want to do is put 46.5 grains of 2208 into a Lapua case and seat the 155 Palma and go and shoot. The tube allows me to do that, and for that matter it would be the best thing that the struggling newcomer to the sport could do for himself. This is not about winning. This for me at the moment is being able to go and shoot with minimal fuss and still be able to post a decent score and have fun. If i do happen to beat you then the answer is simple. Fit a tube.
If i was to go to all the trouble of batching and weighing etc and wanted to win at all cost, i already have a number of very good barrels in great cartridges that are very competitive right now in FO, but i am back to square one. Rinso is spot on again with rule 10. FO is no longer fun.
Tony Z.
As to why i wish to build a new F Standard rifle is really very simple. I do so much shooting that requires lots of time batching and grading and meplat cutting and weighing of charges etc, that the thought of just throwing charges directly into a case and picking a 155 from a box and seating it as the factory made it, is at the moment very appealing to me. The tube barrel allows a lot of component variation within its simplicity that still makes the whole thing competitive. A very well built rifle based on BR ideas would be probably more competitive, but i don't need or want that right now. I don't want to go to the range hoping that the weather is good so i can do some load developement. All i want to do is put 46.5 grains of 2208 into a Lapua case and seat the 155 Palma and go and shoot. The tube allows me to do that, and for that matter it would be the best thing that the struggling newcomer to the sport could do for himself. This is not about winning. This for me at the moment is being able to go and shoot with minimal fuss and still be able to post a decent score and have fun. If i do happen to beat you then the answer is simple. Fit a tube.
If i was to go to all the trouble of batching and weighing etc and wanted to win at all cost, i already have a number of very good barrels in great cartridges that are very competitive right now in FO, but i am back to square one. Rinso is spot on again with rule 10. FO is no longer fun.
Tony Z.
Tony,
There's no need to apologise about anything. I think we all need to just make an effort to see the other side's point of view. I'm not happy with what' been done to BR at Canberra and can understand how that must have damaged the relationship.
I can see where you're coming from with the barrel stretcher, but when you're trying to get a virtually unknown technology past the rules, you don't have to be Einstein to figure out there will be a high level of suspicion about what advantage it will give.
So I have to say I hope you don't try it, because it will stir up more trouble between shooters within F-Std, which is bad enough already after the Nationals at Belmont. As for F-Open, I think it would probably be okay. It would be a good competing product with the Grenfell tuners which are becoming very popular in Vic.
Alan
There's no need to apologise about anything. I think we all need to just make an effort to see the other side's point of view. I'm not happy with what' been done to BR at Canberra and can understand how that must have damaged the relationship.
I can see where you're coming from with the barrel stretcher, but when you're trying to get a virtually unknown technology past the rules, you don't have to be Einstein to figure out there will be a high level of suspicion about what advantage it will give.
So I have to say I hope you don't try it, because it will stir up more trouble between shooters within F-Std, which is bad enough already after the Nationals at Belmont. As for F-Open, I think it would probably be okay. It would be a good competing product with the Grenfell tuners which are becoming very popular in Vic.
Alan
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
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AlanF wrote,
I would like nothing more than to be able to bowl down on a Sat arvo and blat away with the NRA. I spend all my energy shooting BR as such FO does not really appeal to me. I do that in Long Range BR and that is a passion.
I would love to be able to take my 308 Stolle up to the F Standard shoot on Sat and just throw some cases and pills together and have a nice relaxed shoot and a talk shit.
I however can not because I have a Jewell Benchrest trigger which works fron 2 - 8 oz. Now I am not about to throw that away as I use this rifle in BR. Then again I dont want to go and shoot FO as I have to do all the stuff I am trying to avoid.
Tony Z has the right of it ... if you made F standard a more open grade ie any 155 bullet, any trigger that passes the rapid cycling test you would get more bums on seats or guts on mounds as the case may be.
Unfortunately FS is tied to standard rifles with a scope ... meaning you gain your FS shooters by losing from another part of your sport ... thats not more shooters thats just shuffling numbers.
This means I need to buy/build a rifle just for a bit of fun on the odd Sat arvo .. If I am going to that much trouble I might as well get competitive and here we go again.
I dont want to win a National .. I would not knock it back .. but I would like to have some fun and that is what is lacking. I don't know what the politics of it all is except that it is something that seems to be ongoing.
Sorry for the rant but we should be banning together not banning each other.
cheers
Rinso
I could not agree more, I dont think resentment is the right word though, frustration maybe.I'm sorry to see the amount of resentment towards F-Class. Its not what shooting needs
I would like nothing more than to be able to bowl down on a Sat arvo and blat away with the NRA. I spend all my energy shooting BR as such FO does not really appeal to me. I do that in Long Range BR and that is a passion.
I would love to be able to take my 308 Stolle up to the F Standard shoot on Sat and just throw some cases and pills together and have a nice relaxed shoot and a talk shit.
I however can not because I have a Jewell Benchrest trigger which works fron 2 - 8 oz. Now I am not about to throw that away as I use this rifle in BR. Then again I dont want to go and shoot FO as I have to do all the stuff I am trying to avoid.
Tony Z has the right of it ... if you made F standard a more open grade ie any 155 bullet, any trigger that passes the rapid cycling test you would get more bums on seats or guts on mounds as the case may be.
Unfortunately FS is tied to standard rifles with a scope ... meaning you gain your FS shooters by losing from another part of your sport ... thats not more shooters thats just shuffling numbers.
This means I need to buy/build a rifle just for a bit of fun on the odd Sat arvo .. If I am going to that much trouble I might as well get competitive and here we go again.
I dont want to win a National .. I would not knock it back .. but I would like to have some fun and that is what is lacking. I don't know what the politics of it all is except that it is something that seems to be ongoing.
Sorry for the rant but we should be banning together not banning each other.
cheers
Rinso
Rinso,
Good post and some good points. The only hope I can give you is that F-Std is growing fast, enough to have 2 grades now in Victoria. If the growth continues there will soon be enough for a split along hardware lines - one for the purists who basically want a converted full-bore rifle that can be converted back to iron sights simply and quickly, and the other with more relaxed rules on components, weight, stock, rests, trigger etc. However its not going to happen overnight, particularly in some areas where numbers are small. But there does seem to be 2 distinct groups in F-Std, one which is quite close to what you are suggesting.
Alan
Good post and some good points. The only hope I can give you is that F-Std is growing fast, enough to have 2 grades now in Victoria. If the growth continues there will soon be enough for a split along hardware lines - one for the purists who basically want a converted full-bore rifle that can be converted back to iron sights simply and quickly, and the other with more relaxed rules on components, weight, stock, rests, trigger etc. However its not going to happen overnight, particularly in some areas where numbers are small. But there does seem to be 2 distinct groups in F-Std, one which is quite close to what you are suggesting.
Alan