New project :) .20 cal

Richta · Post by **Richta** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:48 am

Hi everyone,

I've got as hankering for a new project. I recently purchased a stevens 200 in 223 in a bell and carlson stock. My plan is to have it rebarrelled to a 20 cal. I've ordered a pac nor 20 cal med palma barrel and I'm deciding what to chamber it in. So heres what I'm thinking either a 20 tac or 20 vartarg. the positive of the 20 tac. are factory lapua brass and i have heaps of .223 brass. So its definetly the front runner. But i have started reading up on the 20 vartarg and it seems like a really nice efficient cartridge. But the thing that worries me is the lack of brass. From what i've seen remington are the only producers of 221 fireball brass and there are supply issues. So I'm a bit torn as to what cal to go with. I was wondering if anyone here has experience with either cartridge. I'd be happy to use remington brass for the vartarg but i don't have any experience with rem brass and would like to know peoples opinions on the quality.

Basically just thinking out loud! Any advice would be appreciated as this would be my first semi custom build!

cheers

Chris

Plowboy · Post by **Plowboy** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:28 pm

What about .20prac? No fireforming and dead easy with a redding S type die. BradY has one.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:27 am

And a reamer for 20 prac if you want to borrow it. Im necking down remington brass and its performing fine. Only trouble is I enjoy shooting it that much that Im running through that many cases its not funny. Im loading them pretty warm and getting half a dozen or so per case before they get hard to extract. Getting 3750fps with 40gr vmax and 23.7gr reloader 10x. Thinking im going to load them down a whisker and go back the the 39gr sierra.

Richta · Post by **Richta** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:38 am

Didn't read about the 20 prac! had a look on 6mmbr definetly looks good, especially the no fireforming bit! Really easy to form brass too! I will probably go that then, basically the same as the tac. but easier to form brass. Hey brad you say your getting 6 reloads per case before hard to extract? is there a way you can size the body of the case, like using the 223 die without the expander and then run it through the bushing die again? (everything about the prac sounds good but i would like a little long case life if possible) Also do you bother annealing your brass? Thanks for the offer to lend me your reamer, I'd definetly be interested in borrowing it! i just put in the order for a pacnor barrel and they're expecting around a 16 week turnaround so it wouldn't be for a while.

cheers

Chris

Con · Post by **Con** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:20 am

Richta,
Treated well and not loaded to primer stretching proportions, you'll see out a 223 barrel with 100 pieces of brass, and the fact you can buy top quality through to cheap arse 223Rem brass makes it a great candidate for a 20cal wildcat.

Used with care ... I used to full length size 303/27 brass with a 303FL die and expander removed, then neck size with a Universal neck sizer.

In regards to a 221Fireball based 20cal ... couldnt you use new Rem 17 fireball brass and open the necks? It'd probably help remove all the dents that seems to come standard on Remington brass.

But in all honesty ... 20Practical seems a ripper little cartridge.
Cheers...
Con

trevort · Post by **trevort** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:06 am

I dont like the thought of the vartarg because with such a small powder load it seems to be only a 32 gn pill proposition. I like the longer neck of the TAC rather than the prac.

Real world, everyone I have ever heard of that has a vartarg absolutely loves it and you can form cases fro Lap 223, neck down 221fb or neck neck up 17fb.

if you go the TAC dont do any research on load development. RE 10x. Thats it. My version matches my 204 speed

frl0173 · Post by **frl0173** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:41 pm

A mate has a 20-250 and he just uses necked down 22-250 cases. He is pushing 45gn projectiles at over 4100fps when we cronoed it earlier and with the 32gn projectiles he is up into the 4500 fps ranges, this was also cronoed.

Richta · Post by **Richta** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:45 pm

Thanks for everyone's input. I probably end up going the .20 prac, but there's always that nagging feeling about the vartarg. i don't know what it is about it, it just seems neat. There is also another potential problem with the vartarg, i don't know how reliably they will feed and eject from the magazine of the stevens.

Post by **MISSED** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:24 pm

I liked the idea of a Vartarg 18 grains of powder to achieve 3800 fps with 32 grainers is impressive and as Ackley Improved said it is a Laser to 200m which is about how far most spotlighting shots are taken.But feeding can be an issue unless you have a single stack mag as a CZ 527 has and even then some tweaking may have to happen.
I am going to go with a straight neck down of the 222 case.No false shoulders, no cutting dies, just a little neck trimming and use a 222 "S" type die.Good luck with want you build.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:43 pm

I probably load mine a bit hotter than I should. Im using a type S FL die in 223 with a 233 and 227 bushing. Neck down with the 233 bushing then change over to 227. Trim back to usual 223 trim length and your set. Dont fireform- just load and shoot.

To be honest, the constant FL sizing is probably over working my cases too much. Will order the necking die or maybe even lash out with a custom collet die.

This reamer is set for winchester/remington brass- Ive tried lapua but it needed the chamber to be slightly deeper i think. Remington is fine for me, I dont cry if I lose one in the field. Its also designed for 32gr bullets to be well seated and still function in an AR15. Not that we are likely to be allowed those anytime soon, but if I was going to re design the reamer I would allow for a little more throat. Its easy fixed if your smith has a 20 cal throater.

Reloader 10x is good stuff, but BM2 and 2206H work as well. 40gr vmax strike with the hammer of thor but you want a 1:11 to stabilise them, my 1:12 shoots good groups at 100m with them but Ive checked at 200m and its not as good as the 39gr sierras.

Just remember, its not a 204, it can be loaded close to it, but it works the cases hard. Better off keeping it back to accurate and not trying to make it a 204 and go through cases like I was when stoking it up.

Richta · Post by **Richta** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:50 pm

I do like the idea of the vartarg, but as you said missed it might be a hassle trying to get them to feed from the stevens magazine. The 20 prac definetly seems to be the go, i've got plenty of 223 brass and all i'd have to buy is the redding type s neck die with the couple of bushings. And being just a simple neck down to 20 cal i'd know they'd feed and eject 100%.

Brad, I'm not so worried about the short throat but how do the 40 grainers go in the case? do you have to seat them so deeply that they effect case capacity?

Most of my brass is LC would they go ok or do reckon the chamber will be too short? Another option is to get pacnor to chamber the barrel at the factory ... yep i've ordered a 1 in 11 twist just to make sure they stabilize the 40s (which is the projectile of choice i think for the prac)

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:16 am

It all depends on the shape of the projie. The 40VM is a good one as they are long. There isnt much of the bullet at 204 diameter that can go deep into the neck. I think the correct term here is bearing surface- not sure. Anyway on the other end, the 40 nosler isnt good as it has a larger area at 204 diameter and is more of a short dumpy bullet. It takes up more case room than the 40VM. The 39gr SBK is in between but is still decent. The 45gr soft point from hornady is a bad one as well. Ive put 24.5gr of BM2 and 2206H in the case and there is still room for more. I reckon you could probably go up to around 25.5 or 26 gr of 2206H in a remmy case with the 39gr SBK seated at my length. But my primers are starting to flatten off about 24.8gr so Im back down to 24.5gr. 23.7gr has been my most accurate charge of reloader 10x- with either 39gr SBK or 40VM and theres still room for more. I like being able to shake a round and hear powder- makes me know its not going to just go pop and leave a round in the barrel. Its something I check on all my loaded rounds before putting them in the box.

My loaded rounds are 39gr SBK 2.180 from memory and 40gr vmax about 2.200. The handy thing there is as the throat wears away (and its proving to be very slow at doing this unlike a 22-250) you have plenty of bullet to be able to continue moving out. Another thing about 40gr vmax that MISSED found out is that they like being up near the rifling. I havent tried this yet but it wouldnt surprise me. It could mean a little less projie in the case.

You should be able to find a nice load for the 40 vmax that is running around 3700fps from a 25" barrel.

Never tried LC brass but i think the guys on 6mmBR (warren B aka fireball) used it and it worked. I think there is a reamer print link on thier article somewhere- that is the reamer I have. Had a bad experience with winchester brass the other day when I forgot to reduce loads and start up again. Silly me. Ive put that brass aside until I work out starting loads for it. With your LC brass, you will need to neck it down so you can seat a projie then use a micrometer to get loaded neck diameter, then purchase a bushing 1 thou smaller. My work with the round is that it doesnt like too much neck tension so Im using a 227 busing and a loaded round measures 228.

Again just remember its not a 204 so you wont be running right up at those velocities, close but not quite.

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:22 pm

Just got back from the smiths- mate dont listen to a word Ive said about the cases. Its a problem with my barrel being chrome moly and not stainless like I thought. Chamber was full of crud and rust... My previous true flite barrel was stainless and I got plenty of reloads out of the cases then- this is a chamber issue not the cases themselves. Im up for a re chamber and blue job now!

Richta · Post by **Richta** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:34 pm

Thanks heaps for all the info brad! Thats good about the brass, for what its worth ive ordered a stainless barrel! Well if you reckon you can fit up to 26 grains of bm2 then theres is no issue with seating the bullets to deep, i'm pretty sure most of the loads ive seen are well under that anyway and like you said i'm just looking for good accuracy! And the points you make about the advantages of a short throat i didn't think about but definitly a positive. thanks for all the details on your loads and dimensions its good to have an aussie to compare as i'd really like to try and use adi powders, you know the whole availabilty thing. Anyway i'll let the smith know that im going to go with the prac. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have the reamer so if your still willing to lend it to me that would be great (no worries if you don't though)!

Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:14 pm

Not a problem mate, will clean my gun up and hopefully the smith will re chamber it this week while he is doing a few other barrels for me. Just let me know when your barrel arrives and I will send it over. All he needs is a set of 223 rem GO/NO GO gauges to set the chamber to- which all smiths would have no doubt.

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