WHY are we so far behind the US?

[a.JR]

While it is distinctly possible that i am wrong in some of the things i have proven only to myself ,it is my opinion that there a whole stack of shooters out there in AUS that well have the ability to shoot right along side the US competitors .. But don't have a gun that is accurate enough .. The new shooter that set a new small group day AGG record last 1K match up home confirmed exactly that . The guy had never seen a 1000yd range or target before in his life and with ten minutes of instruction from TZ and a borrowed gun he shot the lights out of the place .. He did nothing wrong but the reason for the super performance is because the gun was right ,right then .. Only time will tell if that gun can do it again, this weekend as a matter of fact at our 2nd last Postal event..JR..Jeff Rogers

[justjeff]

Jeff,

To be honest I think many of the small groups shot here are blown in, not steered in. We don't get the range time, and the prices of equipement are high. Look at that gun for sale ex US at the moment. $2800 for a sister to the gun that holds the world record, bullets half price, brass half price and lots of ranges to shoot on.
I would shoot 1000yd every second weekend if I could get on range, but we both know that isn't possible. You and I have both been looking at rear rest issues and tracking for some time, we just don't seem to have the critical mass to generate enough knowledge and experience, then share it.


Jeff

[justjeff]

Here's another point Jeff, seven different gunsmiths in the top 20 groups in the US? we don't have seven gunsmith's in Aus capable of producing a long range gun of the quality and precision needed in my opinion. We have a couple, but that's all, and to complicate things, the wait list for their work is extensive. Then we could talk about barrels, most of the barrels in that list were Broughton and Kreiger, we can get Kreiger, but Broughton is a difficult proposion, as is Bartlein, and many of the actions they use.

Jeff

[m12vlp]

I have to ask why we don't have a core of equally dedicated shooters over here ..

From my perspective I would love to but there are a big bunch of No's that I have to contend with.

No Money
No Ranges.
No gunsmiths who will build how you want in a time frame that is reasonable.
No Money.
No time.
No Money.

[Ackley Improved]

I believe there is enough accurate guns in Oz. You only again have to look at the quality of gear on the line at Fly matches. A rifle that shoots Fly can of course shoot 1000yds.

There is just not enough guys shooting the 1000yds. With limited number of 1000yd ranges, and the COF for 1000yd many of these guys that shoot Fly dont go to 1000yd matches when it is just 1000yd.

As said, for guys shooting 1000yds is a bonus for the trip after competing in the Fly. I think, well definitely down south we are more geared towards the 500 event.

SOTY matches

2 X 500m Canberra
2 X 500m melbourne
2 X NSW ( Batemans and hopefully Wagga)

I agree that we have shooters in Oz that can match the US shooters, but without these guys spending the time at 1000yds we wont ever know.

Side note, what happened with the guys in the US having a crack at our fly target?

Cheers

[Rinso]

I believe there is enough accurate guns in Oz. You only again have to look at the quality of gear on the line at Fly matches. A rifle that shoots Fly can of course shoot 1000yds.

There is just not enough guys shooting the 1000yds. With limited number of 1000yd ranges, and the COF for 1000yd many of these guys that shoot Fly dont go to 1000yd matches when it is just 1000yd.

As said, for guys shooting 1000yds is a bonus for the trip after competing in the Fly. I think, well definitely down south we are more geared towards the 500 event.

SOTY matches

2 X 500m Canberra
2 X 500m melbourne
2 X NSW ( Batemans and hopefully Wagga)

I agree that we have shooters in Oz that can match the US shooters, but without these guys spending the time at 1000yds we wont ever know.

Side note, what happened with the guys in the US having a crack at our fly target?

Cheers

I tend to agree that there is simply not enough range time for 1k and the incentive to travel to shoot 2 targets is not great. Look atbthe Canberra numbers 30 plus shooters after each Fly shoot and 10 -12 for the rest of the matches. Take the Canberra locals out of that 10 -12 and its not a lot of shooters that can afford to spare the time or spend the money for two targets or four if you shoot both classes. That said I travel and love the 1k although this has been a busy year and I have missed a few matches I will always go back.

ps Batemans Bay will hold 1 x SOTY and 1 other major match each year along with a few club fly shoots I am pretty certain Wagga are looking at he same so 4 matches in NSW but only 2 SOTY

[Tony Z]

I will never wear that bad weather across Australia's ranges theory at all because no-one will ever convince me that there is never a good day at those ranges at some time. If the day is there and you are lucky enough to get the condition only to shoot a 10 inch group in still air, then i will be the first to tell you that your gun (tune) is a piece of crap. The common excuse of "there is something out there i can't see" is just plain bullshit. I think the biggest problem, if you want to call it that, is that too many shooters are complacent and are willing to accept the result without asking the question "why?", only to later say that it was all about having fun. Well if you want to spend 10 grand on a piece of scrap wood to have fun, then go for it. I can sure as shit say that i will have way more fun shooting smaller groups if i can somehow find a way.

I reckon in the US it comes down to the level of the guns and the brainstorming that comes with having a larger community of shooters. Guns do win 1K and it will always be that way as can be seen in that top 200 list put out recently by exactly who is missing from it. Namely the 2010 world record holder who has had his great batch of bullets disappear last season. It must be difficult for him to watch his records being eroded whilst unable to do anything about both the group and score aggs being already surpassed with the season two matches from completion. Going from the penthouse to the outhouse by simply not having the right batch number is a hard lesson in what really happens at these matches.

Once again i see that mention of dollars in the equation of winning. It should be noted that there is no correlation either here or in the US that more dollars means a higher finish on the ladder, but there is clearly a mentality here in Australia that this is the case.

The other theory i will dispute with experience and not evidence is the one that good Fly rifles make good 1K rifles. It is my experience that the distance beyond 800 yards makes or breaks a 1K gun and that 500 meters is rarely a proof indication of either the final bullet flight or group potential at 1K. It is in my view only a start point and have personally seen good Fly rifles go vertical at 1K and shoot disproportionately non linear groups at this distance. The only evidence of this i can give is that there are any number of HGs that can shoot under 2 inches at 500 meters, then with all things being linear, one could conclude that they could go on to shoot around 4 inch groups in those same conditions at 1K. How many Fly guns have achieved that after all the attempts after how many years? None, because there is something missing in either the guns themselves or the bullet choice or culling process or other factors.

The common theme coming out of the US and the one link that i believe is missing in the entire package is that there is testing going on at 1K. Lots of it. Matt Klien made no secret of his relentless testing of barrels, bullets and rests across two rifles at 1k for the duration of 2010 and before. Now this across the board testing most likely occurs during the shoot-off stages on spare benches or set days for just this purpose. It would be a safe bet to say that to do better at 1K you have to tune at 1K. Without that here, we will always be behind the 8ball. I can safely say this will be a certain thing in Townsville either here on our home range or on a private test facility with a view to close that gap between us and Virginia in 2012. I personally cannot see any other way that the gap can be closed as the barrels, bullets, rests and rifles are all here now. There is nothing in the US apart from test sessions at 1000 yards that is not on our wind and mirage free range .

[Brett33]

Its not that hard to import stuff, yes it takes time but I can get a Broughton Barrel in 14 to 16 weeks, I have 10 actions and 9 barrels from 4 different makers about to leave the USA, the whole process has taken 10 weeks so for and 8 weeks of that is getting Australian paperwork. Kreiger and Bartlein are a longer wait, if you want cut rife barrels I can get Rock creek in less then a couple months, and they are getting good reviews for long range.
Are Baity's Custom in the top 7 Gunsmiths on the list? He will make a rifle and export to Australia alot quicker then some Aussie smiths can. I know they build long range gear, I spent hours talking to them while in the USA.

Here's another point Jeff, seven different gunsmiths in the top 20 groups in the US? we don't have seven gunsmith's in Aus capable of producing a long range gun of the quality and precision needed in my opinion. We have a couple, but that's all, and to complicate things, the wait list for their work is extensive. Then we could talk about barrels, most of the barrels in that list were Broughton and Kreiger, we can get Kreiger, but Broughton is a difficult proposion, as is Bartlein, and many of the actions they use.

Jeff

For me its about trigger time, I can not speak for the long range guys but the rimfire guys that are in the top 50 in the USA shoot between 40 and 60 registered events a year and go through 20000 rounds I can not compete with that.
Brett

[oldbushie]

I have noticed in the results up north, (i shoot there as well) one thing that is common in the good results is attention to detail and prep time by the better shooters. I can also say with absolute confidence that attention to detail in case prep, bullet batching, actuall reloading and checking runout on loaded rounds will produce results, i am wondering if part of the problem is that a lot of us just do not put in the long dull hours of prep that is required to get a better result. I also agree with Tony Z that sooner or later you will get the day. I have only been shooting long range for about 10 months but have still managed to take out smallest group in heavy gun once (500yd), something suited the way i shoot. My other thought on this is how many people take the time to customise a stock - or do they just use whatever the gunsmith puts on it for them. I am currrently making a HG stock and to get it to work for me is not a simple job, i have put in about 20 hours so far and have the benefit of JR and Tony Z giving advice and others who have also tried and mucked up and finished with a usable product. I have found that even 1/4 inch difference on length of pull can change the whole comfort level of a stock. The point being that there are lots of custom stock makers in the US here it all tends to be the job of the gunsmith, do we have a total custom package or just a custom barrel, action and trigger. Maybe we need to ask ourselves are we ALL serious about it or is it just a fun way to burn powder. Me a record would be great but i honestly do not think i am that serious yet!

[RDavies]

I think the AMOUNT of good weather days will play a very large part in the equation.
When I lived in Cairns, I got to practice and shoot in a lot of light conditions (mainly up in the table lands though) and was able to tune my 6PPC and 22BR to the Nnth degree, seeing differences in .1gns of powder, or .003" of seating depth. In the lighter conditions, I could use the super accurate little pop guns at long range. I got lots more perfect scores (100/100) up there in 1 year than I have down here in 3 years in F class, mainly as I was able to shoot in good conditions a lot.

Then if we went to a REALY good condition range, like Wingham, one of the highest scoring ranges around, and got TonyZ and aJR and lots of other competitive shooters who pay the same amount of attention to detail, to practice and compete there regularly, the little 6BRs and Dashers could realy shoot some small groups. Just gotta get more ranges like that to get people like that.
As it is I,m getting another Dasher and 6BR barrel ready for when Wingham does start 1000yd BR, but then, like most, I will only be able to practice/tune, a few times a year.

As has been mentioned, cost, if we were only paying a barrels real value, $350 or so like over seas, then we could do what they do (and some do here) buy 10 barrels and shoot them all to see which ones are give aways, which are for practice, and which are the hummers.
We can get barrels as good as anyone, but cant afford to go through the amount of barrels to find the hummer.

Same with access to good bullets, I would love to get 187BIBs to build a 300WSM, but just cant get them.
I would go for the big banger as the only place I shoot 1K BR realy is always windy and miragey according to the shooters who shoot there a lot.
How many dedicated, realy commited and talented 1K BR shooters are in OZ, maybe a dozen or two?

Numbers,ranges, time, practice time, cost, talent pool.

[a.JR]

Hi Guys , Well it's near 2012 and we still don't have a 1000yd BR range in Victoria, who's to blame .. No one from the 5 existing ranges i can a sure you of that ..You can't expect PVM to do it ,he runs around like a blue arse fly now.. If i did not have the time and put in the effort i don't think Townsville would be still shooting 1K, all it takes is someone to drive it and it will go great ,look at what Dave G has done .. He hardly ever gets to Canberra anymore because he's so busy with the local set up ,but i takes this sort of commitment to make it successful .. Hell he gets as many if not more to a local shoot than the big two do to a big event.. .. Things i have learned in the 10 years i have shot 1000yd bench
1/ i can't shoot a L/G And a H/G and get it right on both( hence the reason i only own 1 gun)
2/ Using only your learned experiences at the 500met Fly event will net you average results at 1K
2a/ Tuning your gun for Fly only and expecting it to shoot screamers at 1000yds is a myth
3 Trying to do real well at score will make your groups larger
4/ if you have a average grouping gun coming to Townsville will still see you with big groups because we don't have a tunnel to shoot in besides the popular belief's ..
5/ using a 6br H/G on my range will not get you smiling
6/ Having a attitude of just wanting to get your gun better for your core event will see very average results at 1000yds B
7 Leonard Baity is not well represented at Williamsport even though he's not that far away in NC, his name appears once in the top 200
8 No amount of cubic dollars will help you win if your plans a faulty 1st up .The performance is spelt out straight up before you even pull the trigger

9/ Most of the US guys that do real good don't even shoot 600 yd because they are willing to travel to get good at what they do at 1K.
10/ If Victoria comes on line with 1000yd Benchrest with a capital B then IMO it will change the face of what happens over here
.JR..Jeff Rogers

[Rinso]

Its a funny way to look at it but I reckon that the surge in Fly will have a greater impact on 1k than any new range. The other thing that I think would help 1k would the the development and growth of 550yd LRBR.

The major issues are as I see it;

Lack of ability to shoot 1k regularly (the best I can do is bi monthly for 2 targets)

No or very limited chance to practice at 1k

Cost .. now I mean setting up a gun solely for 1k when I shoot Fly and for some F class means having maybe 3 or even 4 top level rigs

Until such time as I can shoot only 1k I have to be able to shoot 500 Fly and 550 BR to get enough matches that means my rifles are tuned to what I shoot most which at this time is 500 metres or 550 yds.

Practice and a full shooting circuit that is manageable will see marked improvements things like the smiley patches Dave G has introduced are great and will encourage some to come and get one but only if the are worth having/earning but we dont have enough matches to make up a year so it will remain for most something to shoot for fun.

[m12vlp]

Its a funny way to look at it but I reckon that the surge in Fly will have a greater impact on 1k than any new range.

Bingo!

If only because people will have their fly gun and say to themselves "...wonder how this'll go at 1000???"

And once they start the bug will bite.

I have seen this with F-Class. People turn up with their totally unsuitable and uncompetitive factory sporter and (as long as they aren't alienated) get well and truly hooked. Then it's on

[oldbushie]

I think event promotion is something that needs working on too. Is there some way of promoting the class somewhere. I have a friend who only managed to get to a 500yd shoot and shoot 2 targets with a borrowed gun yet has had a severe bite from the the longrange bug, and is now working out a peace treaty with his other half to build/buy a 1000yd HG. He is considered around the area to be one of the best marksman but has admitted to being stunned by the accuracy of the long range shoots. It is this sort of inquisitiveness that we need to take hold of and grow if we want to see things improve. The more people there are shooting the class the more each of us will want to improve - who likes coming last? Should we have a practice afternoon shoot and invite interested parties to come along and have a shot or two to see what is happening. Double benefit we all get some extra trigger time and maybe get some extra converts as well. I think a lot of people have a fear that they will not hit the target and will look silly because they missed, when they see that a well tuned gun will do the job shot after shot i think that most will get a little more curious. Just an interesting thought could we outlaw short range and make all bechrest 500 and 1000yd only.

[RDavies]

Just an interesting thought could we outlaw short range and make all bechrest 500 and 1000yd only

Yep, make 100yds for rock throwing competitions only.

5/ using a 6br H/G on my range will not get you smiling

Jeff, you and Tony have proven that you need more horsepower than a 6BR at your range. I have never seen very easy conditions at Townsville the few times I have been there. I think Lower Light,Bendigo, Canberra, Belmont and Dubbo-Narromine fall into that catagory as well. In F class circles, these ranges are not known for being consistantly easy.

How do you think Australias BEST 1000yd Benchrest shooters would group if they had a few ranges to practice mid week and compete on weekends with the sort of conditions where 6BRs and 6 Dashers were breaking all the records like in some of the ranges I have seen overseas.
Do you think the gap would be bridged a bit more, first of all by more regular easier conditions, then by the fact that inherently accurate, easy to handle, quick to cycle little calibers could be used.