good books on long range shooting

[chris.tyne]

Hey thats fair enough,I did ask a while back,of those whom they didn't work for what do you put that down to.


Regards Chris.

[kjd]

Keith, you might look at this post and see 5 pages of shit, but i see 5 pages of calling a product/products for what they are, and i don't just mean Berger, i mean most all VLDs that i have had anything to do with, and then i see lots of defence of that product from those who have most to gain. I know that nothing would have been said by a lot of people had they not had a vested interest. This thread says it all, sport and money screws up both the sport and the people. And yes i am screwed up because of this relentless push and marketing ala Danoz Direct style on each and every forum worldwide. The moment i see a CEO come on line, i switch off and never read the post. It is just hype. Just like i have certain peoples names invisible to me when they post for the same reason.

Maybe it is time to look at an alternative, like dumping the advertising and subsequent fee from the forums and placing a cost on registration of members on such forums. I know i would gladly pay a fee annually to be on this and other forums, and even moreso if i could avoid all the bullshit marketing hype. i know others are in agreement. Then we can safely talk about everything without the corporate men getting involved and you yourself having to censor threads. Once you are paid money by an advertizer, it is your duty to defend that advertizer, whether the product is any good or not. That sucks.

None of the brands mentioned here pay a cent of advertising.

You can try having rego fees for a forum but I see that as a way to kill a vibrant forum. It won't be happening here and it has been 5 pages of shit..

At the moment there are 0 advertisers on AV.

[macca]

Hey thats fair enough,I did ask a while back,of those whom they didn't work for what do you put that down to.


Regards Chris.

I have had success with Bergers but I have had a couple of lots,one 6mm one 7mm that seemed all over the place in bearing length.
They shot well enough once sorted but its a pain when you go through 500 projectiles and have heaps of different piles.
I have had similar problems with other brands as well.
But Eric said they pride themselves on having tight tolerances and like Shane I'd like to know what they are.
Then if you lot fell outside those tolerances you would have a better chance of getting something done about that particular lot.
They have a premium price tag so you expect a premium product.I will use them but I don't buy a big lot till I check out a box first nowadays.
cheers

[m12vlp]

Hey thats fair enough,I did ask a while back,of those whom they didn't work for what do you put that down to.


Regards Chris.

I reckon every target shooter on the planet is trying to work that one out...

[Con]

Keith,
You know ... for the non-target shooting lay person ... I really can't see what the stir was caused by. Some have expressed product preferences for various reasons ... but the outsider would not see what the cause of the anxiety is.

Carry on with a great forum site / layout, which for many reasons is still unique and informative.

Vote 'NO' for paid membership!
Cheers...
Con

[chris.tyne]

[/quote]

I reckon every target shooter on the planet is trying to work that one out...[/quote]

So are you saying that it can not be explained and it just happens that the projectiles are not accurate,is it because of jacket irregularities,inconsistant dimensions..........etc.



Regards Chris.

[m12vlp]

So are you saying that it can not be explained and it just happens that the projectiles are not accurate,is it because of jacket irregularities,inconsistant dimensions..........etc.

Regards Chris.

I think it comes full circle again to what Eric posted and I quoted before. It's up to the rifle.

Precisely why? Who really knows ??? I don't, that's for sure.

How to find out??? I think that's what Eric was talking about when he mentioned getting the makers together.

Do you have any theories on it?

It's a bigger problem than the common or garden variety shooter can solve. Best we can do is try what's out there.

[kjd]

Keith,
You know ... for the non-target shooting lay person ... I really can't see what the stir was caused by. Some have expressed product preferences for various reasons ... but the outsider would not see what the cause of the anxiety is.

Carry on with a great forum site / layout, which for many reasons is still unique and informative.

Vote 'NO' for paid membership!
Cheers...
Con

I am a non-target lay person who hasn't read any of the books quoted nor have I used Berger bullets.

There was no "fair go" given to anyone that a few people decided to lynch. That is what I'm pissed about.
First they went after Wadcutter who has done nothing wrong as far as I'm concerned. Then a company's products gets dragged through the mud with bugger all but anecdotal evidence to back it up. when all the OP asked for was some suggestions on some books and seeing the following shitfight disgusted me as the entire thread did little to answer the poor bloke's question.

Then to come on here today, be told how to run the forum, have the debate still continue after my warning was totally ignored has me so close to just shutting down this section it ain't funny. Not to mention a look at some of the other topics here has me rolling my eyes. That'll teach me for not reading the shooting sports section of the forum often as it seems I'm blind to the goings on here.

Don't worry Con,
This forum will continue to be free even if it is sans a shooting sports section.

A message to anyone who has posted in this topic:
Quit it with this shit... Respect each other and give one another a fair go. If you want a good example of how to conduct yourselves, look any where else on this forum and see how you should treat people.

[singleshot]

...............Then to come on here today, be told how to run the forum, have the debate still continue after my warning was totally ignored has me so close to just shutting down this section it ain't funny. Not to mention a look at some of the other topics here has me rolling my eyes. That'll teach me for not reading the shooting sports section of the forum often as it seems I'm blind to the goings on here.

Keith, I sympathise with the dilema you face. I have been an avid target shooter for 30+ years and dearly like to communicate and help others in a constructive way. I used to enjoy visiting this section of your site and sharing positive info with others. It is not a perfect world so there will always be disagreements, that's life. But when disagreements become very personal as they have, it disturbs me.
What disturbs me most is that many people are oblivious to some of the very negative agenda's run by a very small minority. How many non target shooters, new target shooters, experienced target shooters, potential shooters etc etc, are wondering what the hell is this all about when these posts keep coming. I have even had messages from friends overseas wondering what the hell are we trying to do to our sport. We have enough "enemies" outside without fighting within.
These are just my views, I have no ties with suppliers. I have my sport at heart and do not want to see it divided and destroyed.

Cameron
Proud F Class Open Shooter.

[Camel]

Here, Here, we all have opinions and everyone should respect eachothers right to express that opinion, even if you dont agree with it, thats what is called the AUSSIE WAY. Opinions are like arseholes - everyone has got one

[chris.tyne]

[/quote]

Do you have any theories on it?

It's a bigger problem than the common or garden variety shooter can solve. Best we can do is try what's out there.[/quote]

Hmmm I have do have a theory based on what you say..........................................rimfire and centrefire arn't that different after all...........................Im outta here .




Regards Chris.

[Eric Stecker]

Making consistent bullets is very important to us. The link below will take you to the page on our website where we relay our tolerances. A fair warning: We are a producer of a product and have no way to communicate our information without marketing. I’m not sure how we could communicate these ideas without “marketing” as marketing is defined as “the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling”. Our lives would be much different and most would agree lessened without this key part of commerce.

I am not saying this in an attempt to engage in a meaningless shit fight but rather to express to others reading that even though it has been suggested that “marketing” is the equivalent of lies it can be helpful and beneficial. The trick is to determine which marketing is hype (because some is) and which is factual. I suggest it is more appropriate that one should be mindful and cautious about any source of information. Using one source as the only source of data is not wise but excluding the maker/seller of the product as a source for credible information is also not wise. One should take it all in and make your own judgments.

As I've said before, we stand behind our quality and will work to make things right when needed. Admittedly, it is a challenge to resolve these situations in Australia since bullets are a restricted item (shipping outside of the country). We need to make special arrangements when product needs to be replaced but we will do so if needed.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Informatio ... etter.html

To expand upon "the rifle chooses the bullet", we know from much testing that every bullet can be tuned to optimized performance within a given rifle. The level of optimized performance achieved from a given bullet in a given rifle may be poor compared to the optimized performance of another bullet. So in the end each bullet will shoot only as well as it can in a given rifle. The objective of the precision oriented rifle shooter is to find the combination that provides better performance than any other combination.

Unfortunately, most shooters don't have time to tune their rifles with several different combinations. For this reason they are compelled to seek recommendations from others. The problem with these recommendations is that they are only valid for the rifle in which they were shot. A load that works great in Bill's rifle may not hit a pie plates at 100 yards in Bob's rifle.

So what is a new, novice or top shooter with little time to do when it comes to selecting products? Our suggestion is to go with what has worked best for the most shooters. I'm not talking about what works best for a few or a small group of shooters but rather what works best over all. When it comes to proven precision performance both Berger and Sierra have the record of long term, proven success. I believe there is also a homemade brand in Australia that is a proven performer. I did not deliberately exclude them but I do not recall the name.

The fact is however that even if you try these bullets, there is a chance that your specific rifle will not shoot them as well as you’d like especially if you don’t have time to tune them. If this is the case, the simplest and quickest way to get your rifle tuned is to switch bullets. Unless something is seriously wrong with your rifle it is likely that some bullet will be shaped in a way that matches your shooting system (rifle and load) best and will therefore perform best.

I’ll also add a closing fact about shooting the VLD bullets. About 2 years ago, I wrote an article that explained how we told a lot of people that to get the VLD bullets to shoot best you needed to put them into the lands. As it turns out this is not true for many rifles. After much testing it was discovered and then later confirmed that VLD bullets can shoot extremely well with a jump as much as .150. Some shooters report exceptional accuracy with jumps up to .400.

http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/blog1/?p=43

As it turns out, the VLD is sensitive to seating depth which everyone knew. But this sensitivity has an interesting and consistent result. VLD bullets have been proven to shoot best within a given COAL “sweet spot”. I won’t go into all the specifics as they are clearly laid out in the article. The good news is that those who had poor success with VLD are likely to gain considerable improvements in performance from reading this article. The test you need to conduct to tune your rifle in this situation is only 24 shots. If you follow this test properly I can assure you that after these 24 shots you will know the COAL that is best for shooting VLD bullets in your rifle. The difference in performance will be clear.

Regards,
Eric

[MISSED]

Thank you Eric

[macca]

Thanks Eric, for taking the time to reply and give those two links,it was what I was after.
Agree totally with the vld findings,one of my 7mm are jammed the other jumps 30thou.
cheers

[justjeff]

Keith,

I think the root of the whole arguement is in the statement that the Litz book contains all the OP needs to know about long range shooting and reloading. Not my words, they come from Wadcutter. I have the book in question, and I think to be fair, even Brian and Eric would disagree with this statement. I'm not knocking the book, or the bullets, each have their place and uses, but to assert that it is the only and complete guide is quite frankly an oversimplification, which several have taken exception to.

We all know the work and time at the trigger needed to do well in this sport, it doesn't come from a book, never will. After all, if it was easy, everybody would do it.

Jeff