good books on long range shooting

[jimbo]

Hi people,
I believe Richard Wilder?s aussie record 2.1 something inch light gun record for 5 shots @ 1000yds was shot with Bergers in 6.5x47. Can't be too bad hey what?
Cheers,
alpal.

I was thinking the same thing...I believe that Stuart Elliott's new record in Fly was also shot with Bergers.

Must have been 'specially selected batches'.

Gee Jimbo,

I have seen Stuart win and shoot records with Lapua Scenar's and Sierra's as well so does that mean I should shoot what Lapua's for the A target, Bergers for the B target, Sierra's for the C target and so on or should I shoot a brand a match ....????????
Do you change projectiles evrytime someone shoots a record??????? No ... I thought not.
Hey do you own a Long Range BR rifle? ... is it the same as Stuart's? His shot a record better go make a copy of it.

This thread has wandered far enough without someone like you making smart arse comments.
I would guess you batch your bullets just like the rest of us.
I would also guess you have had good and bad experiences with different brands, just like the rest of us.
I would also suggest you use the bullet that works best in YOUR rifle.
Do you shoot Bergers in BR Brendan ... ??????
I dont have a dog in this race because I like most shoot what works for me and have made no comment for or against any brand. Thats because what I am shooting now make not work in the next barrel, so I will change to what does regardless of brand name. I do however like to see peoples opinions I dont have to like them but they are entitled to them.

I doubt that Stuart needs you banging a drum for him and I doubt Berger Bullets need you either, they have both seemed to succeed well enough on their own.

Stuart and Richard had a bit of personal skill involved in those results or are you suggesting that the bullets did it all on there own???? because there were a lot of blokes shooting bergers at the Federal Cup, they didnt all do well now did they.

By the way both Stuarts record score and Richards groups equate to a total of 6 five shot groups, thats 30 bullets. What would that be as a percentage of Berger bullets shot in competition in Australia????

Its a shame that you seem to only pop into this forum make a stupid comment about something and leave because you have a great deal of knowledge about shooting. Pity your not more constructive and trying to build the sport up by passing that info on and making worthwhile contributions to threads.
Until you do want to make worthwhile posts I peronally would rather you sat there quietly or just went away .. Thats my opinion ... you dont have to listen to it or like it though.

Dear oh dear........what a reaction! Who put sand on your tampon?

So it's OK for people to publicly put shit on people and products and feel really smug about it as they have a group of sycophants who will back them up.

But it's not OK for me to make a simple comment of FACT. Sounds to me that FACTS are a rarity in some peoples minds.

That's all it was.

Have a nice day!

BA

[Eric Stecker]

Wow. It's been a while since I've seen a situation such as this. Such a clear and seemingly somewhat deliberate case of miscommunication. The most important goal of communicating is to reach true understanding and to be understood. The human condition is so complex that anyone and everyone represents a point on a bell curve fashioned by a given measure of which there are thousands. If one seeks to tear someone else down it is easy enough to find one of these bell curves where the target person fails to meet some standard and is therefore subject to criticism regardless of how that specific point is incorporated into them as a whole person. In this case those making such criticisms fail to see that they are the same in this way as those they criticize. They simply choose to ignore this truth.

There have been very few situations where I believed I couldn't reason with someone with whom I am having a debate or succeed at least to reach a mutual understanding. I believe this thread is such a discussion. There is clearly little I can say that won't come under fire. A key difference that I'm observing on this thread is that the shots are so many and various that it makes addressing them nearly impossible. The response will be so long and come under fire so heavily that the next retort will be epic in size. The point of the discussion lost hundreds of words ago.

For this reason I will not attempt to volley on every point even though several are misunderstandings, mistaken assumptions or false entirely. I will say that when it comes to bullet performance there is one thing that I know to be true. It is easier to tune a rifle by switching bullets than it is to do so in any other way. Each shooting system will like different bullets at different times for reasons that are on a list longer than jolly St. Nick's.

During my early days with Walt I would become concerned when we would hear about other bullet brands doing well. During this time, Walt taught several bullet makers how to make bullets. These folks would go on to become our competitors in the bullet market. After watching this over the first few years I asked Walt about why the success of other bullet makers didn’t bother him.

I internalized his answer immediately as he said it. Walt said “There are enough rifles in the world to feed all the bullet makers and more.” I said, “Don’t you mean that there are enough shooters in the world?” Walt’s reply was, “no, I meant rifles. The rifle chooses the bullet not the shooter.”

I understood this immediately to mean that as long as there were rifles there would be those that will choose Berger bullets (by shooting them better than other options). So I quit worrying about other bullet brands to the extent that years later I worked to bring all the major bullet brands together in an effort to collectively support organized shooting on a much larger scale. After pursuing this for several years, I regret that the effort was a failure but it was worthy of an attempt.

I expect that every reasonably serious rifle shooter has bullets from nearly every brand. They should try each of them to see which bullet the rifle likes best. I know that many people don’t have time for this but it doesn’t change this truth and if they could try at least a few different brands they’d see differences at least.

In the end, at Berger, our goal is to make our bullets as dimensionally consistent as possible. We believe that if the bullets are dimensionally consistent they have the best chance of shooting well in a given rifle. Having said that, I know that some rifles don’t shoot our bullets well at times in their functioning life. I would not hide that truth from anyone as it takes far more effort to support a false positions than it does to rest on the truth. I don't have time for BS.

Regards,
Eric

[m12vlp]

Thank you.

[BRT]

As most people know I don't hang around this forum often, partly because of reasons Eric has stated in his post actually, but I have to say....that is a hell of a post Eric. Very well said indeed and well laid out. I hope everybody reads it at least twice and digests it well in the fullness of time. On behalf of most shooters in Australia I apologise for the disrespect you have received.

Stuart Elliott

[singleshot]

........ I hope everybody reads it at least twice and digests it well in the fullness of time. On behalf of most shooters in Australia I apologise for the disrespect you have received.

Stuart Elliott

Here here

Just got back from an overseas trip, holly shit, how un Australian are some of you blokes!!!!! I rarely come to the so called Sports section as it is "owned" by a vocal minority......this is sad for the new and unsuspecting shooters

[kjd]

FFS guys.

I was only half reading this thread, I didn't realise that it got so off track.
I am embarrassed by the carry on here, I am absolutely disgusted.

Firstly,

AusVarmint.com has... Sorry I mean HAD a reputation that everyone here was well behaved and got a fair go. This thread has proven that this is not the case and that this community is not better than any other. You have all whipped yourself up into a rabid lynch mob targeting anyone who did not agree with you. This is both sides.

I am really dumbfounded at the behaviour in this topic. It started off from a guy who wanted a book on LR shooting. It was turned into an attack because someone dare sell a book on here (who had my full permission to sell his wares on here due to the help that he had given me.) Then we have to have company representatives come on here and defend their company against complete vitriol that in my eyes is just a few people's personal experience. If something doesn't work for you then that is fine say it but do it intelligently in a way that can be addressed and is not defamatory.

Maybe a few of you should venture outside the target shooting forum and see the mate ship and camaraderie that goes on in the hunting side of things, you lot attack one another like rabid wolves. Then I read people don't come to this forum because of that attitude?
It's no wonder people shy away from ranges and target shooting. Even I don't often even read the shooting sports forum and its all because of this mentality.
There is so much knowledge and experience in this topic alone that if we had 5 pages of true constructive advice for budding target shooters instead of 5 pages of shit we might actually help someone.

From now on we will have civil discussions and HEALTHY debate that isn't attacks but uses facts and evidence to support your argument. I will close the section down if I ever have to put up with this bullshit again. No more shitfights.

You guys really need to take a long hard look at yourselves and realise whether or not its worth getting yourselves worked up about complete shit which is basically what happened in this thread.

So please all of you stop spitting venom at one another. We as shooters in this country have to fight for our right to shoot any and all disciplines. We have to defend ourselves from the anti-gunners and the legislatures in this country. If we all just spent half of the energy fighting the true enemies of our sport as we do fighting one another and bagging out the businesses that support our sport we'd be a lot better off.

Regards,
Keith Drain.
Owner of AusVarmint.com

[BRT]

Very well said Keith. Way overdue but I am not blaming you. Pity it had to be said but it had to be said by you.

Thanks,
Stuart

FFS guys.

I was only half reading this thread, I didn't realise that it got so off track.
I am embarrassed by the carry on here, I am absolutely disgusted.

Firstly,

AusVarmint.com has... Sorry I mean HAD a reputation that everyone here was well behaved and got a fair go. This thread has proven that this is not the case and that this community is not better than any other. You have all whipped yourself up into a rabid lynch mob targeting anyone who did not agree with you. This is both sides.

I am really dumbfounded at the behaviour in this topic. It started off from a guy who wanted a book on LR shooting. It was turned into an attack because someone dare sell a book on here (who had my full permission to sell his wares on here due to the help that he had given me.) Then we have to have company representatives come on here and defend their company against complete vitriol that in my eyes is just a few people's personal experience. If something doesn't work for you then that is fine say it but do it intelligently in a way that can be addressed and is not defamatory.

Maybe a few of you should venture outside the target shooting forum and see the mate ship and camaraderie that goes on in the hunting side of things, you lot attack one another like rabid wolves. Then I read people don't come to this forum because of that attitude?
It's no wonder people shy away from ranges and target shooting. Even I don't often even read the shooting sports forum and its all because of this mentality.
There is so much knowledge and experience in this topic alone that if we had 5 pages of true constructive advice for budding target shooters instead of 5 pages of shit we might actually help someone.

From now on we will have civil discussions and HEALTHY debate that isn't attacks but uses facts and evidence to support your argument. I will close the section down if I ever have to put up with this bullshit again. No more shitfights.

You guys really need to take a long hard look at yourselves and realise whether or not its worth getting yourselves worked up about complete shit which is basically what happened in this thread.

So please all of you stop spitting venom at one another. We as shooters in this country have to fight for our right to shoot any and all disciplines. We have to defend ourselves from the anti-gunners and the legislatures in this country. If we all just spent half of the energy fighting the true enemies of our sport as we do fighting one another and bagging out the businesses that support our sport we'd be a lot better off.

Regards,
Keith Drain.
Owner of AusVarmint.com

[wolfred]

Has the OP bought a book yet?

Am I the OP? If so I can report that I have ordered the following from Amazon:-

The Hunter's Guide to Accurate Shooting
by Wayne van Zwoll
and

Precision Shooting Reloading Guide
by Dave Brennan

So, I'm waiting impatiently

As some have recommended, I'm sure nothing beats shooting practice, I just find very limited opportunities to shoot, with work always in the way. WORK - The curse of the drinking class!

I've been surprised how many squabbles can be generated by such an innocent inquiry.

Cheers, Colin

[James270]

Has the OP bought a book yet?

Am I the OP?

You certainly are, good to see you have managed to avoid most of the shit fight

I hope the books help you out

[shane]

Cool calm and collected is the way to go guys.

Now I in no way am looking to stir trouble or anything along those lines. If you think this is out of line for some reason please say so,
but if Eric comes back to our pages and see's this post i would love to know what tolerances they place on their projectiles, eg bareing length, base to ogive, base to tip, dia. etc
This question is not just for Eric and Berger but any bullet makers, large companies and small one man shows.

I have shot a lot of projectiles over the years and some need batching others not so much.

I ask this here as the op seems to have gotten some info from the posts previous and many of the previous posts tend to tie into this.
Please note this is not a witch hunt or a shit stir just a question to gain more knowledge.
cheers,
Shane

[Tony Z]

Keith, you might look at this post and see 5 pages of shit, but i see 5 pages of calling a product/products for what they are, and i don't just mean Berger, i mean most all VLDs that i have had anything to do with, and then i see lots of defence of that product from those who have most to gain. I know that nothing would have been said by a lot of people had they not had a vested interest. This thread says it all, sport and money screws up both the sport and the people. And yes i am screwed up because of this relentless push and marketing ala Danoz Direct style on each and every forum worldwide. The moment i see a CEO come on line, i switch off and never read the post. It is just hype. Just like i have certain peoples names invisible to me when they post for the same reason.

Maybe it is time to look at an alternative, like dumping the advertising and subsequent fee from the forums and placing a cost on registration of members on such forums. I know i would gladly pay a fee annually to be on this and other forums, and even moreso if i could avoid all the bullshit marketing hype. i know others are in agreement. Then we can safely talk about everything without the corporate men getting involved and you yourself having to censor threads. Once you are paid money by an advertizer, it is your duty to defend that advertizer, whether the product is any good or not. That sucks.

[chris.tyne]

Tony you are most likely right and I am in no real position to enter in a discussion on the subject as I have no real word experience.Having said that I have looked at the guns of the week on 6mmBR and there are a few that use Berger,also it seems that the vld's are popular as well,people are winning with both.........why is that,are our conditions that different over here?,it would be an interesting debate if some of the thoughts,experiences that have been discussed on this thread were discussed on 6MMBR or Benchrest central as their are more than a couple of experienced,competitive shooters on the books and it would make for a healthy discussion.



Regards Chris.

[m12vlp]

Tony you are most likely right and I am in no real position to enter in a discussion on the subject as I have no real word experience.Having said that I have looked at the guns of the week on 6mmBR and there are a few that use Berger,also it seems that the vld's are popular as well,people are winning with both.........why is that,are our conditions that different over here?,it would be an interesting debate if some of the thoughts,experiences that have been discussed on this thread were discussed on 6MMBR or Benchrest central as their are more than a couple of experienced,competitive shooters on the books and it would make for a healthy discussion.
Regards Chris.

I know that you're asking something of Tony but I cannot personally see the question??? I suppose it's like you said, a debate.

As I see it, everything wins if it's good enough and everything loses to if it's not.

Hunt up some results and you will see that 6ppc's lose a lot of short range benchrest matches. Is that because 6ppc's or inherently inaccurate or because everyone is using them and someone has to loose?

Projectiles are no different but the real answer on them was in Eric's post...

...
I internalized his answer immediately as he said it. Walt said “There are enough rifles in the world to feed all the bullet makers and more.” I said, “Don’t you mean that there are enough shooters in the world?” Walt’s reply was, “no, I meant rifles. The rifle chooses the bullet not the shooter.”

I understood this immediately to mean that as long as there were rifles there would be those that will choose Berger bullets (by shooting them better than other options).

...
Regards,
Eric

[chris.tyne]

Ok I understand that the rifle chooses the bullets bit,so does that automaticly mean that Bergers are bad?,If people bagged them like they appear to be on here then who in their right mind would use them,and as I have alluded to it appears plenty win with them in the states and Europe.........can they really be discounted as a viable choice to use?



Regards Chris.

[m12vlp]

Ok I understand that the rifle chooses the bullets bit,so does that automaticly mean that Bergers are bad?,If people bagged them like they appear to be on here then who in their right mind would use them,and as I have alluded to it appears plenty win with them in the states and Europe.........can they really be discounted as a viable choice to use?

Regards Chris.

The thing is, i'm not seeing them being bagged.

I personally just don't understand the near worship of them. It's alien to me, i just don't get it, particularly the venom that flows when someone says anything bad about them.
Is that bagging them or just an observation of peoples behaviour?
That someone says "brand x doesn't work for everyone" and so many people interpret that to be "brand x doesn't work for anyone". There's a massive difference between those two words.

I really see it all put into context out at the range, where I see the results coming not from a projectile but from the shooters that put in the effort to tune their loads and their rifles.

From what i've read Tony and a.JR seem to be objecting primarily to the marketing, although when pushed did tell speak of some of their experiences which aren't entirely positive although I expect if pushed further they could regale us of other products they've tried over the years and not had great success with.

So like I said, i'm not seeing them being bagged.