Hi all, once again -
Come on guys let's get off the slanging match. If you can't just stick to the topic then at least declare any pecuniary interest you may have or point out another's failure to do so in polite terms. I am prepared to go on record as an on-seller of a great many shooting accessories but try to keep this out of my posts - unless I can provide serious evidence that someone bagging a product I supply is perhaps in error. I think we have done as much as we can (in real terms) to help this guy on his way in the long-range shooting sports.
Pete
good books on long range shooting
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Eric Stecker
Re: good books on long range shooting
Colin,
The books listed in previous posts are good sources of information. You will know within the first several pages whether they will be interesting to you or not. Everyone learns differently. For some, reading about something helps them apply it in their actions. For others, reading a book to gain knowledge is a kin to a youngster being told to force down brussel sprouts at the dinner table. Knowing how you learn best and following through with disciplined and regular practice will do you and any shooter a lot of good. Books are a very good way of being exposed to ideas that would have taken you years to stumble upon yourself.
a.JR and Tony Z,
I must start by apologizing for all the wrong I have caused you both. You have a lot of bad things to say about Berger and Bryan's book and given your status as shooters I will take these criticisms seriously. I believe strongly that your issues can be resolved to your satisfaction if you let me know what it is that we’ve done to cause you to think so poorly of us.
We actually do make very good bullets. These bullets have won in every major competition on the planet. They have held and do hold every type of record achieve in rifle competition (group and agg) at one time or another and is a very active brand within competition shooting at the highest levels. You don't achieve this without doing something right.
The thread linked (to BR.com) on this forum regarding a bad lot of 6mm 105 gr is something that continues to confuse me. The part that confuses me is why shooters will occasionally choose to post this situation on the forum before they talk to us. In every situation of which I am aware we have made things right with anyone who has a problem. In many cases it is determined that the issues are not as it originally seemed. I would rather handle these situations directly with the person who has the problem but I do not fear dealing with this publicly as it does not happen often and is always resolved in the end.
I offer also that your criticism of Bryan's book is yours to make and I respect that you don't think this book necessary. I can assure you that he poured his heart and soul into providing the rifle shooters with information from which they will benefit. He was very concerned that it addressed issues that would help shooters. This is the reason why he added the bullet test data. The amount of work it took for him to put this together is worth at least the respect of having performed an extremely costly and time consuming task for the benefit of others.
I care a great deal about Berger and our reputation so I felt it necessary to join the discussion. This is my first post here but I am a regular poster on other forums and will typically engage threads about Berger. This has less to do with the fact that I make and sell them than it has to do with this is the subject I know and my time available to lurk on the forums is limited.
It is curious to me that there is such as strong negative opinion about those engaged in commerce. Is the manufacturer or reseller of a product not a good source of information about that product? I can appreciate that it does happen that marketing promises much and the actual results fall short but is this always true? Also, is it always true of the people who deal with this product?
I know a lot of successful shooters who base much of their advice on what they heard from others. Who then is the true root source? There are very few who have shot enough of all the various brands and products to know everything without getting information from makers or resellers. Could none of this valuable information come from makers and resellers? Maybe but I doubt it. Is there anyone engaged in firearms commerce that you do trust or consider a valuable source? If there is, what did they do to earn your trust?
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets
The books listed in previous posts are good sources of information. You will know within the first several pages whether they will be interesting to you or not. Everyone learns differently. For some, reading about something helps them apply it in their actions. For others, reading a book to gain knowledge is a kin to a youngster being told to force down brussel sprouts at the dinner table. Knowing how you learn best and following through with disciplined and regular practice will do you and any shooter a lot of good. Books are a very good way of being exposed to ideas that would have taken you years to stumble upon yourself.
a.JR and Tony Z,
I must start by apologizing for all the wrong I have caused you both. You have a lot of bad things to say about Berger and Bryan's book and given your status as shooters I will take these criticisms seriously. I believe strongly that your issues can be resolved to your satisfaction if you let me know what it is that we’ve done to cause you to think so poorly of us.
We actually do make very good bullets. These bullets have won in every major competition on the planet. They have held and do hold every type of record achieve in rifle competition (group and agg) at one time or another and is a very active brand within competition shooting at the highest levels. You don't achieve this without doing something right.
The thread linked (to BR.com) on this forum regarding a bad lot of 6mm 105 gr is something that continues to confuse me. The part that confuses me is why shooters will occasionally choose to post this situation on the forum before they talk to us. In every situation of which I am aware we have made things right with anyone who has a problem. In many cases it is determined that the issues are not as it originally seemed. I would rather handle these situations directly with the person who has the problem but I do not fear dealing with this publicly as it does not happen often and is always resolved in the end.
I offer also that your criticism of Bryan's book is yours to make and I respect that you don't think this book necessary. I can assure you that he poured his heart and soul into providing the rifle shooters with information from which they will benefit. He was very concerned that it addressed issues that would help shooters. This is the reason why he added the bullet test data. The amount of work it took for him to put this together is worth at least the respect of having performed an extremely costly and time consuming task for the benefit of others.
I care a great deal about Berger and our reputation so I felt it necessary to join the discussion. This is my first post here but I am a regular poster on other forums and will typically engage threads about Berger. This has less to do with the fact that I make and sell them than it has to do with this is the subject I know and my time available to lurk on the forums is limited.
It is curious to me that there is such as strong negative opinion about those engaged in commerce. Is the manufacturer or reseller of a product not a good source of information about that product? I can appreciate that it does happen that marketing promises much and the actual results fall short but is this always true? Also, is it always true of the people who deal with this product?
I know a lot of successful shooters who base much of their advice on what they heard from others. Who then is the true root source? There are very few who have shot enough of all the various brands and products to know everything without getting information from makers or resellers. Could none of this valuable information come from makers and resellers? Maybe but I doubt it. Is there anyone engaged in firearms commerce that you do trust or consider a valuable source? If there is, what did they do to earn your trust?
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets
Re: good books on long range shooting
Wow. It was annoying that people were pulling overseas people into the F-Class forum discussions recently because they couldn't support an argument on it's own.
Now it's happened here.
Eric,
I would have held some respect for you had you come in here and told us about your experiences on long range shooting. Instead you wandered in and continued an argument that was not about products specifically, but about people putting forward products without declaring their relationship to the product. (i.e. they sell it).
Disclosure is a big thing to many.
Now. That thread on benchrest.com is not the first i've seen around about the inconsistency of bergers. It's something that happens. But expecting people to cover up the fact that it happens is something that really troubles people like me. Your credibility with me just dropped a massive amount. You don't know me from a bar of soap so that probably doesn't mean much to you personally but there will be others who will develop the same view.
Had you come in and said that "A bad batch slips through from time to time and it's our policy to get them replaced" then you would have earned respect. But to suggest that the public has no right to know that the odd box of bad bergers slips through... It is disrespectful to all.
As for Bryan's book itself. I posted a while back that the main problem with it is that people see it as some sort of religious reference. They quote it but don't understand it. That's not criticism of Bryan and his knowledge. He knows his stuff.
But the average beginner that comes along has usually picked up one thing from it. "I must use Bergers" Why is that?
We had some fool on the Australian F-Class forums recently arguing that bergers should be allowed as an approved projectile because they have the highest BC of comparable weight projectiles. At no time would he consider that BC wasn't everything and that consistency is of equal or greater performance along with every other facet of long range shooting. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Quite frankly it's insane.
As a beginner so to speak, having shot F-Class for just 2 1/2 years i've been reading a lot everywhere I can get it. I wasn't happy with the poor quality of the ballistics programs out there so I wrote my own. I understand what Bryan writes. I have read a number of books on Fullbore/long range shooting that were loaned to me as I don't have much money and support two shooters who are out there every week. The biggest problem with most books and why I won't recommend them is that they just aren't relevant to F-Class which I shoot. The targets have gotten so much smaller than the fullbore targets the books are typically written about, that F-Class is now more closely related to long range benchrest and fly shooting in the attention to detail required. With all my book knowledge I struggled until I started listening to those that shoot closer to what I shoot. The long range BR shooters and Fly shooters. I will now always recommend that path to other when it comes to knowledge gathering.
In short, "Listen to those who aim smaller than you do."
That is the best advice anyone learning can receive.
Now it's happened here.
Eric,
I would have held some respect for you had you come in here and told us about your experiences on long range shooting. Instead you wandered in and continued an argument that was not about products specifically, but about people putting forward products without declaring their relationship to the product. (i.e. they sell it).
Disclosure is a big thing to many.
Now. That thread on benchrest.com is not the first i've seen around about the inconsistency of bergers. It's something that happens. But expecting people to cover up the fact that it happens is something that really troubles people like me. Your credibility with me just dropped a massive amount. You don't know me from a bar of soap so that probably doesn't mean much to you personally but there will be others who will develop the same view.
Had you come in and said that "A bad batch slips through from time to time and it's our policy to get them replaced" then you would have earned respect. But to suggest that the public has no right to know that the odd box of bad bergers slips through... It is disrespectful to all.
As for Bryan's book itself. I posted a while back that the main problem with it is that people see it as some sort of religious reference. They quote it but don't understand it. That's not criticism of Bryan and his knowledge. He knows his stuff.
But the average beginner that comes along has usually picked up one thing from it. "I must use Bergers" Why is that?
We had some fool on the Australian F-Class forums recently arguing that bergers should be allowed as an approved projectile because they have the highest BC of comparable weight projectiles. At no time would he consider that BC wasn't everything and that consistency is of equal or greater performance along with every other facet of long range shooting. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Quite frankly it's insane.
As a beginner so to speak, having shot F-Class for just 2 1/2 years i've been reading a lot everywhere I can get it. I wasn't happy with the poor quality of the ballistics programs out there so I wrote my own. I understand what Bryan writes. I have read a number of books on Fullbore/long range shooting that were loaned to me as I don't have much money and support two shooters who are out there every week. The biggest problem with most books and why I won't recommend them is that they just aren't relevant to F-Class which I shoot. The targets have gotten so much smaller than the fullbore targets the books are typically written about, that F-Class is now more closely related to long range benchrest and fly shooting in the attention to detail required. With all my book knowledge I struggled until I started listening to those that shoot closer to what I shoot. The long range BR shooters and Fly shooters. I will now always recommend that path to other when it comes to knowledge gathering.
In short, "Listen to those who aim smaller than you do."
That is the best advice anyone learning can receive.
Re: good books on long range shooting
Hi All , Eric , In my world ,although somewhat insulated the only thing i trust is what i can directly prove myself .. In this case it's on a target face .. I have infact been self employed most of my working life and in the retail sector, so i have nearly 40 years of sales experience and i am a true capitalist, through and through ..But what winds my clock is some that come onto the forums acting like one of the boys when it is only natural they would be recomending their product be it good or bad.. I think it is not fair to the new guys and old one's alike ..I have no problems with this when it's plain to see it's an advert.. In recent times the owner of this site put up information for all to read about NO free flogging of your gear in any guise and it has amazed me he didn't pull this whole thing ..
About your product , i bought the 1st 500 bullets in 1997 , then 100 again 2001, then 100 again 2006 .. So i have got back on the horse so to speak but have had no success with your product and have passed on that info to others for free just like a whole other bunch of stuff i have learned testing different products in an effort to try and get the best results i can .. Up until recently it would cost me over a dollar to get to my bench for each one of your bullets ,this coupled with they were very hard to get in any quantity and if the product was not very good for my purposes in the 1st place you should be able to understand why i don't use or recommend your product .. JR.. Jeff Rogers
About your product , i bought the 1st 500 bullets in 1997 , then 100 again 2001, then 100 again 2006 .. So i have got back on the horse so to speak but have had no success with your product and have passed on that info to others for free just like a whole other bunch of stuff i have learned testing different products in an effort to try and get the best results i can .. Up until recently it would cost me over a dollar to get to my bench for each one of your bullets ,this coupled with they were very hard to get in any quantity and if the product was not very good for my purposes in the 1st place you should be able to understand why i don't use or recommend your product .. JR.. Jeff Rogers
Eric Stecker wrote: If there is, what did they do to earn your trust?
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets
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wadcutter
- .17 HMR
- Posts: 222
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- Contact:
Re: good books on long range shooting
First up. Welcome Eric to the forum.a.JR wrote:..But what winds my clock is some that come onto the forums acting like one of the boys when it is only natural they would be recomending their product be it good or bad.. I think it is not fair to the new guys and old one's alike ..I have no problems with this when it's plain to see it's an advert.. In recent times the owner of this site put up information for all to read about NO free flogging of your gear in any guise and it has amazed me he didn't pull this whole thing ..
a.JR ,You sure should read that book on diplomacy.
Eric Stecker came to this site to see what issue you have with his products and you and m12vlp bag the shit out of him. That is just plain rude.
I don't know how he found this thread, I didn't invite him but I do welcome his input.
As for me supporting Keith and his web sites. I take it that you do not bother to read his other web site Hunt and Shoot.. I have been a significant contributor to his endevors over the last 18 months and feel that he has been let down big time by blokes like you that have just been along for a free ride.
It wouldn't hurt blokes like you that brag about how good they are and post top 50 group size reports on various forums just to get there name up in lights. To support Keith with some real input.
How about you get off your arse and help out. Its one thing to mouth off, its another thing to take the time and effort to support someone.
Re: good books on long range shooting
No he didn't. Read his post.wadcutter wrote: Eric Stecker came to this site to see what issue you have with his products and you and m12vlp bag the shit out of him. That is just plain rude.
He came in here to say that people should never criticise berger products. Well that doesn't sit well with me. Everyone makes mistakes. If a company can admit to that and address the appropriately then they earn my respect. If a company cannot admit and tries to shutdown discussion of it's problems then any respect for them disappears.
If you think that it's acceptable for a company to sweep product problems under the rug then your credibility disappears along with his.
Eric's post personally did more harm to berger as a company in my eyes than a score of threads of people having problems could ever have. That was a risk that Eric took and it backfired with me personally and I have expressed that.
If you want to call me rude, particularly given your posts and their content, then you need to take a good hard look at yourself. You started the arguing in this thread when it was pointed out (quite correctly) that Bryan Litz's book isn't a great beginners book.
Re: good books on long range shooting
Firstly,
Hi Eric, welcome to Ausvarmint.
I shoot with TZ and JR, so know them both well. I too have tried your bullets, and I must say have not had the results expected. First experience was in .270, with the 140 and 150 gr, all I could get here. Neither would perform as well as another commercially available match bullet. I didn't think too much of it, as I was new to shooting long range.
I recently however bought 500 6mm 68gr FB Target, lot #2846, and again, can't get them to perform near as well as a 70gr SMK in my 6BR. Do I know what I'm doing, I think so, I won the club championship last year. I have tried seating depths, powder charges, even thinking evil thoughts, nothing helped. I have yet to try any 30cal 210gr in my new long range gun, as it seems that all I see, even from US shooters, is that you have to get the right batch. This may be wrong, but that is the perception that is out there.
If you want to pass this on to someone internal who thinks they may be able to help, feel free, but you asked why the low opinion, here is my reasoning.
Jeff
Hi Eric, welcome to Ausvarmint.
I shoot with TZ and JR, so know them both well. I too have tried your bullets, and I must say have not had the results expected. First experience was in .270, with the 140 and 150 gr, all I could get here. Neither would perform as well as another commercially available match bullet. I didn't think too much of it, as I was new to shooting long range.
I recently however bought 500 6mm 68gr FB Target, lot #2846, and again, can't get them to perform near as well as a 70gr SMK in my 6BR. Do I know what I'm doing, I think so, I won the club championship last year. I have tried seating depths, powder charges, even thinking evil thoughts, nothing helped. I have yet to try any 30cal 210gr in my new long range gun, as it seems that all I see, even from US shooters, is that you have to get the right batch. This may be wrong, but that is the perception that is out there.
If you want to pass this on to someone internal who thinks they may be able to help, feel free, but you asked why the low opinion, here is my reasoning.
Jeff
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jimbo
- .17 HMR
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:11 pm
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- Location: South Australia
Re: good books on long range shooting
I was thinking the same thing...I believe that Stuart Elliott's new record in Fly was also shot with Bergers.alpal wrote:Hi people,
I believe Richard Wilder?s aussie record 2.1 something inch light gun record for 5 shots @ 1000yds was shot with Bergers in 6.5x47. Can't be too bad hey what?
Cheers,
alpal.
Must have been 'specially selected batches'.
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native hunter
- .270 Winchester
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Re: good books on long range shooting
And I thought us rimfire boys were mad.!!!
Native
Native
-
jimbo
- .17 HMR
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:11 pm
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- Location: South Australia
Re: good books on long range shooting
G'day mate, and yes we are!!!!native hunter wrote:And I thought us rimfire boys were mad.!!!
Native
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chris.tyne
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1440
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:56 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6BR
- Location: Usually underneath
Re: good books on long range shooting
Now I dont shoot long range anything so now that you all know what my opinion is worth...............lets move right along
I think it's great that Eric has weighed in on this......................bit sad as to the circumstances but good all the same,as has been mentioned there are a lot of US shooters using Bergers and seemingly doing well with them....why is that.
For those that use or had tried Bergers and found them substandard what do you attribute the failure to?
Regards Chris.
m12vlp wrote:Wow. It was annoying that people were pulling overseas people into the F-Class forum discussions recently because they couldn't support an argument on it's own.
I say get over it..............................small world you seem to live in so to speak,this is the world wide web last time I looked.
Eric,
I would have held some respect for you had you come in here and told us about your experiences on long range shooting. Instead you wandered in and continued an argument that was not about products specifically, but about people putting forward products without declaring their relationship to the product. (i.e. they sell it).
Disclosure is a big thing to many.
Each persons value of respect is different that I will grant and wanderd,what did you expect fan fare,dancing girls......beats me.
Now. That thread on benchrest.com is not the first i've seen around about the inconsistency of bergers. It's something that happens. But expecting people to cover up the fact that it happens is something that really troubles people like me. Your credibility with me just dropped a massive amount. You don't know me from a bar of soap so that probably doesn't mean much to you personally but there will be others who will develop the same view.
Had you come in and said that "A bad batch slips through from time to time and it's our policy to get them replaced" then you would have earned respect. But to suggest that the public has no right to know that the odd box of bad bergers slips through... It is disrespectful to all.
This I dont understand.
As for Bryan's book itself. I posted a while back that the main problem with it is that people see it as some sort of religious reference. They quote it but don't understand it. That's not criticism of Bryan and his knowledge. He knows his stuff.
But the average beginner that comes along has usually picked up one thing from it. "I must use Bergers" Why is that?
I feel you are reading to much into this,like Berger has control over everyones mind,once again a bit over the top.
We had some fool on the Australian F-Class forums recently arguing that bergers should be allowed as an approved projectile because they have the highest BC of comparable weight projectiles. At no time would he consider that BC wasn't everything and that consistency is of equal or greater performance along with every other facet of long range shooting. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Must have bergers. Quite frankly it's insane.
Once again one persons opinion.
As a beginner so to speak, having shot F-Class for just 2 1/2 years i've been reading a lot everywhere I can get it. I wasn't happy with the poor quality of the ballistics programs out there so I wrote my own. I understand what Bryan writes. I have read a number of books on Fullbore/long range shooting that were loaned to me as I don't have much money and support two shooters who are out there every week. The biggest problem with most books and why I won't recommend them is that they just aren't relevant to F-Class which I shoot. The targets have gotten so much smaller than the fullbore targets the books are typically written about, that F-Class is now more closely related to long range benchrest and fly shooting in the attention to detail required. With all my book knowledge I struggled until I started listening to those that shoot closer to what I shoot. The long range BR shooters and Fly shooters. I will now always recommend that path to other when it comes to knowledge gathering.
I missed where this was about F class.
In short, "Listen to those who aim smaller than you do."
That is the best advice anyone learning can receive.
I think it's great that Eric has weighed in on this......................bit sad as to the circumstances but good all the same,as has been mentioned there are a lot of US shooters using Bergers and seemingly doing well with them....why is that.
For those that use or had tried Bergers and found them substandard what do you attribute the failure to?
Regards Chris.
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James270
- His Holiness
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- Location: Yass
Re: good books on long range shooting
Has the OP bought a book yet?
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
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- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
Re: good books on long range shooting
Gee Jimbo,jimbo wrote:I was thinking the same thing...I believe that Stuart Elliott's new record in Fly was also shot with Bergers.alpal wrote:Hi people,
I believe Richard Wilder?s aussie record 2.1 something inch light gun record for 5 shots @ 1000yds was shot with Bergers in 6.5x47. Can't be too bad hey what?
Cheers,
alpal.
Must have been 'specially selected batches'.
I have seen Stuart win and shoot records with Lapua Scenar's and Sierra's as well so does that mean I should shoot what Lapua's for the A target, Bergers for the B target, Sierra's for the C target and so on or should I shoot a brand a match ....????????
Do you change projectiles evrytime someone shoots a record??????? No ... I thought not.
Hey do you own a Long Range BR rifle? ... is it the same as Stuart's? His shot a record better go make a copy of it.
This thread has wandered far enough without someone like you making smart arse comments.
I would guess you batch your bullets just like the rest of us.
I would also guess you have had good and bad experiences with different brands, just like the rest of us.
I would also suggest you use the bullet that works best in YOUR rifle.
Do you shoot Bergers in BR Brendan ... ??????
I dont have a dog in this race because I like most shoot what works for me and have made no comment for or against any brand. Thats because what I am shooting now make not work in the next barrel, so I will change to what does regardless of brand name. I do however like to see peoples opinions I dont have to like them but they are entitled to them.
I doubt that Stuart needs you banging a drum for him and I doubt Berger Bullets need you either, they have both seemed to succeed well enough on their own.
Stuart and Richard had a bit of personal skill involved in those results or are you suggesting that the bullets did it all on there own???? because there were a lot of blokes shooting bergers at the Federal Cup, they didnt all do well now did they.
By the way both Stuarts record score and Richards groups equate to a total of 6 five shot groups, thats 30 bullets. What would that be as a percentage of Berger bullets shot in competition in Australia????
Its a shame that you seem to only pop into this forum make a stupid comment about something and leave because you have a great deal of knowledge about shooting. Pity your not more constructive and trying to build the sport up by passing that info on and making worthwhile contributions to threads.
Until you do want to make worthwhile posts I peronally would rather you sat there quietly or just went away .. Thats my opinion ... you dont have to listen to it or like it though.
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
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Re: good books on long range shooting
Eric,
Thanks for calling in ... I am sure that many would have a lot of questions for you but as you mentioned you are time poor and that is understandable. Hopefully you will find time to answer the odd query.
Is there an email address that can be used to get direct answers to questions about Berger products should one have issues or matters to raise??????
Thanks for calling in ... I am sure that many would have a lot of questions for you but as you mentioned you are time poor and that is understandable. Hopefully you will find time to answer the odd query.
Is there an email address that can be used to get direct answers to questions about Berger products should one have issues or matters to raise??????