Which Rifles - Can you please Help me with some advice?

[Dancing Bears]

Here's the deal:
We live on 120 acres in south WA (8 acres of drain area which is the problem)
Varmint problem includes rabbits, cats, foxes and pigs (smaller)
Also run 50 cows, 40 calves and 6 horses
Price is not primary consideration

My local gun shop has recommended:
1. .17HMR. Preference is Browning t-bolt.
2. 30/30. seems like a strange choice to me however further investigation indicates that its difficult to get high pressure firearms like 30/06 or 308 licensed on a small lock. With the new ammo the 30/30 has effective range of 200metres and still effective on pigs, goats, wild dogs and the odd cow. Preference the Marlin 336 XLR.
3. 410. Bunnies and foxes and close range and general utility firearm. Preference Marlin 336 in 410

I have done some shooting though never had the opportunity / time / need to take it further. That has now changed however I dont know what I dont know and need to make some decisions quickly.

Can I please have the benefit of your collective experience / wisdom to help guide me in making the right decisions (primarily around combination of calibre however also happy to here your preferences on make & model).

Thanks very much,

Dancing Bears

[curan]

Welcome to the forum DB.

I'll leave the bigger stuff to those who shoot them more often, but I'll make passing comment on the rimfire.

Personally, for a working rifle, I'd want a synthetic stock, and a stainless or nickel finish, like a Savage 95R17 FSS (for 17HMR) or a Mark II FSS, or a Cz 452 "Style"(both .22LR).
Reasons?
Synthetic and Stainless/nickel are easy care.
Lightweight for convenience/carrying.Any of the above have good triggers (I personally love the accutrigger) at a decent price.
What you save in rifle cost you can put into a good scope and extra rounds for practice/play. This will be the rifle that improves your skills for the lever gun.


And now to don the flameproof suit......... the debate over 17HMR vs 22LR......

Personally, I like 22LR. Others will offer good reasons for 17HMR, but I like 22LR because:
- Choice of ammo. From subsonic (for short range) to hyper. On 120 acres, I don't think I would need much more.
- Large selection of cheap ammo, and readily available.

Okay, that's my $0.02 worth, and it's only my humble opinion. I look forward to seeing others thoughts.

regards, curan

[SW-Hunter]

Go the HMR.
Inherently accurate round
Super flat to 120yds
Light fragile bullet=safe
Will drop anything up to those tall grey things if you slip one in front of the ear.

[Brad Y]

South WA? Just give me a call!

Seriously, my both sides of my family have dairy farms in the margaret river region and we have had to deal with the problems your facing- limited amount of pigs though.

First thing.

17hmr. Great little cal. Fairly quiet compared to a larger calibre. They are accurate little suckers and work well on rabbits plus foxes and cats if your confident with them. There has been debate about if they are suitable for foxes and cats. I used to have two and kind of wish I still had one. Maybe will get another dont know. They are subject to wind though as the little bullet blows around a bit. And I dont know if they would be suitable for putting down livestock.

30-30. I think the only need for such a calibre down here would be for serious pigging. On the plus side they would be more than capable of putting down livestock. Last time I checked, you could get a 30-30 on a small property as they arent considered "high power" but the firearms system is changing so unsure of this. You would need to definitley notify firearms branch that you are a primary producer.

.410 Honestly I believe is a waste of time. Good little gun for some things and handy to have around if a snake is in the yard and proving to be a hazard. But the size of the ammo available wouldnt be all that suitable for what your after.

Next thing

My suggestions.

1. 22lr- ammo is cheap and always available, with rounds such as power points you have a firearm that is very handy for around the farm. A CZ 452 american or classic model with a 3-9 power scope will be perfect.

2. 22 hornet. While ammo isnt all that cheap, I think for a centrefire and the targets you have, the hornet should handle fine. 45gr soft points will have enough power to put down foxes, cats, rabbits, dare I say it small pigs out to 80m or so. I believe at very close range you could put down livestock humanely with it with appropriate shots. Ruger make 22 hornets and so do browning I believe. Theres plenty of anchutz bolt action second hand rifles around and these would be fine as well.

3. 12 gauge. The 12 gauge shotty is the only choice I reckon for a farm. Size 4 and 6 for rabbits, BB for foxes and cats and 00SG and solid slugs for pigs. Solids definitely have the power to put down livestock as well. For a farm gun there are brands like boito, lanber, yildiz etc. Go for an over under as who knows you may get a chance to have a crack at a local clay club one day.

I think the three cals above would suit fine for where your farm is and the size of it.

By the way, dont forget to add your location in your profile- its always good to get another WA local on the site.

[kjd]

I have to say a .223 it will take all of the game you said including the pigs (well placed shots).
Though it has been done a 17hmr will not be good for pigs and whilst it will sort your rabbit and fox prob out it's not ever going to be near a centrefire.

If it were me I'd be buying a 22lr and a .223 and be done with it.

[macca]

Everyone should own a 22lr,just because.They will teach more about technique and breathing control and because they are cheap to shoot you get trigger time and learn to use the trigger properly.
I would say a 223 or 222 will take care of the problems as kjd has pointed out.
It the licensing issue comes up then a 30-30 can do the job but you will need to shoot and learn your trajectory well.
cheers

[stinkitup]

The 22lr will sort everything you mention except pigs and obviously game that's shy. Also if a 223 is not a hassle will reach out and bigger bullets in them will take pigs unless they are big ones.

So aggreeing with others

What the gunshop has mentioned will do nicely the 17hmr is a good round I like the t-bolts and you can get a synthetic also like the savages.

Is 12 gauge high power and hard to get? Over here same class as rimfires, alot more range of ammo and when you think of the performance alot cheaper than a 410. Will sort pigs out with 00SG's with ease and rabbits and foxes are fun with the 12g.

Ryan

[Dancing Bears]

Thanks to everyone - this is exactly the kind of feedback I was after so please keep it coming.

The combination of 22LR, .223 and 12 guage has been put to me before by some friends so interesting that this flavour is coming through again in your feedback. I'm a little concerned that the reach (high pressure?) of the .223 might be a licensing problem on the small block which is why I had reverted to the 17HMR as an alternative.

I will update my profile (only joined last night) but am located in Benger, WA (not far from Margaret River!)

Please feel free to offer more thoughts on this or other possible combinations.

I note that I cant get the Browning t bolt in 22LR, and that IAC (chinese i think) do the 12 guage in lever action?

Thanks again,

Dancing Bears

[Brad Y]

120 acres you wont get a 223 im positive. You will need to look at "low power" centrefires like 22 hornet or 30-30. Your permit will have to show that you have pigs on the property for these as well or firearms branch may only want to issue you with a 17HMR. They sometimes like to argue about the suitability of calibres for different game and if they want to start on that tell them that a 223 is your next option for pigs.

Benger is not far from collie is it? At the bottom of the hill? I drive past there quite a bit for work. As I said, 22lr, hornet and a 12G will suit that area and acreage fine. It got my uncle through fine for years on his couple of thousand acre dairy farm. He did get a 243 for a mob of pigs a few years back though.

[Dancing Bears]

Brad Y,

I reckon your right - which is what I was told originally and why I was advised against the .223. a bit of a shame since it seems to do most things well and would cover 80% of my needs. Would probably get away with 2 rather than 3 firearms this way is another consideration.

I suppose the debate is really down to:

Is the 22LR a better option than 17HMR?
If I have the 30/30 aswell probably don't need the .223 anyway
I think this is what the guy at gunshop was suggesting - it will be a lot easier to license (justify?) the 30/30 than the .223, and as long as I have something smaller (the .22LR or 17HMR) then a pretty flexible combination.

Great feeback once again, so thanks very much.

DB

[m12vlp]

If they won't let you have the 223 will they let you have a 204?

[Dr G]

G'Day Dancing Bear

Your LGS has been pretty good on the advice but I for one would not bother with the .410 A good 12g under and over or side by side (your preference) will be much more practical on a farm of your size. This would be my first pick as it will do everything you need on a farm of that size. Also given the nature of shotguns they are a lot safer than rifles on small blocks.

As for the HMR they are a great calibre and well suited to small farm blocks. Excellent on foxes out to 100m more if you are a good shot. the 22LR will also account for many foxes but at ranges only just exceeding the 12g. It does have the advantage of sub's which you will apreciate if you have neighbours sensitive to noise but that comes at a trade off in energy down range. For me I would go the HMR due to the likelyhood you will encounter the odd fox that wont come in close to a whistle.

Regarding the 30-30 I have a mate who uses his with cast bullets for all stock destruction duties. He has a shorter barrel which is handy in yards etc. Many people will use the 22LR for this role but if you dont get the shot right or the animal moves you will have a cartwheeling pissed off horse or cow to deal with. I guess you need to consider the ranges you will be shooting pigs at. If they are staying back and longer shots will be the norm then go with the 30-30, if they are close in and in cover the 12g will be the tool for the job.

My dad has sold off most of the property I grew up on and now has neighbours on three sides. It is now about the sime size as the property you are talking about. He has a 12g and a 22lr which does the job for him nicely. If foxes become an issue I come for a visit with the HMR.

anyway welcome to the site and I look forwards to hearing about the choices you make

Dr G

[17hmr]

what about a .22mag? alot of pighunters carry one to shoot bailed pigs. double the size of a hmr pil, though not as fast or far reaching. capable of killing all the pest on your property and a bit cheaper to run than the hmr. if pigs arent a concern go the hmr. 30-30 i wouldnt bother with. while fun to explode bunnies with, it will get expensive to run (especially with evolution rounds) and your shoulder will hate you. overkill really on anything smaller than a pig or goat.

[Dancing Bears]

17HMR,

I hear you, though my pigs will be shot at some range (est 30 to 150M max) and without dogs to bail them up - hence the need for a quick clean kill.

I figured this is where the 30/30 would come into it's own, along with an effective calibre for destroying stock (remembering these are cattle and horses, not sheep and goats).

Any of the centrefires - arguably a better option over the 100M + distances - are going to be difficult to license - which is why I keep coming back to the relatively "low powered" 30/30. I think they classify this as a rimfire rifle anyway? Is that correct, and perhaps therefore why I am able to license it relatively easily?

I don't see how a 22MAG would cover the pig shots at 100M (runnng out of energy at this range?) or even safely dispatch large livestock in a yard environment as per Dr G's comments.

Do you have any thoughts on where to start with 12g?

Cheers,

DB

[Dr G]

With 12g like all others you get what you pay for.

For a farm shotgun my pick would be the Miroku Mk70, Knackers has one and it really impressed me. Since then I have had a look at a couple more and I still like them. I recently purchased an Ata 686S which is a turkish clone of the Beretta 686 at about half the price. Definately good enough for my needs but not as nice as the Berreta (or the Miroku for that matter). Other guns I had a look at included the Baikal (rough but serviceable), the Miroku Mk 10 Grade 1 (very nice but just a bit more than I wanted to spend at the time) and the Browning Cynergy (very nice but in the end to expensive for my budget) Certainly there are much better shotguns than these around but you dont need engraving or fancy stocks on a farm shotgun.

I prefer over and under shotties but two of my mates prefer side by side, its what ever works for you. For the work you want to do with the 12g you will want to make sure you have interchangable chokes to tailor it to purpose. The other thing to consider is fit, does it come to your shoulder cleanly, and balance. While looking into mine I spent a bit of time talking to people who do a lot of shooting with a shottie. What I was told was the balance point should be just on or in front of the hinge pin, definately not behind it or to far forwards as this will have a significant impact on how you swing the gun through a moving target. Also when you hold the shotgun in your hand with the stock resting along your wrist, the but should fit firmly into the pocket of your elbow while the hand will get a good grip and the trigger finger is in position. This will give the best "fit" for the gun. You can adjust this by getting different thickness recoil pads fitted.

The other thing I was advised to do is to shoulder the gun with your eyes closed and then open them once its in position. A well fitting gun will be exactly in the right place. If you do this with an experienced shotgunner or shotgun smith they will be able to assess the fit and work out what needs to be changed to get it just right.

For me the Ata fitted just fine and killed a cat with its first ever shot so its a keeper

Its a bugger when you live out bush but if you can get into some of the bigger stores and have a look it will be time well spent.

Dr G