good books on long range shooting

[petevm]

Hi all,

I am going to answer the original question somewhat differently to the others. I suggest you read anything you can lay your hands on and THEN try to apply the bits you can actually FULLY understand. If it's over your head pass on to the next chapter. Now the trick is to apply only a new technique or two at a time rather than trying to become a world-beater in a day. As I and others have often stated you must get in lots of trigger time to move forward. Don't waste shots by chasing a lost cause - if after several shots, you have already destroyed your chances of a win or place then use your remaining ammo to discover what different conditions can do. This will teach you a whole lot more. The 500mt Fly shoots are good for this as one can normally see the bullet holes and if after your third target you reckon your out of contention then you may as well experiment a little. Most of the seasoned competitors I know will try to redeem some glory by trying for small group for the day regardless of 'score' - doesn't often work as the better groups usally appear early in the better conditions, but I managed to do exactly that in Canberra one time with my last target. This is also easy to apply to 'F' class matches as all shots are marked. In 1K matches some organisers offer the option of shooting 'marked' in which case you would be well-advised to shoot this way until your proficiency makes it viable to shoot the real deal - 'Blind'. If you follow my advice and are patient then you should be able to monitor your results and see a gradual improvment. So long as this improvement continues then you will end up being a contender for the placings.

Pete

[Tony Z]

Good points and post Pete.

I think there should be a declaration by some posting here on their real motives. Like who sells what and runs what courses. There is no doubt this thread started out as a simple question, then those commercially driven have put in their views in a way to extract a dollar.
Like i said in an earlier post, beware of the marketing hype.
If someone puts a book that i know is useless to the newbie, then i get slammed for pointing that out, then i see that someone has another line to sell, i gotta say that that person is not helping the new guy other than by lightening their wallet.

[m12vlp]

Good points and post Pete.

I think there should be a declaration by some posting here on their real motives. Like who sells what and runs what courses. There is no doubt this thread started out as a simple question, then those commercially driven have put in their views in a way to extract a dollar.
Like i said in an earlier post, beware of the marketing hype.
If someone puts a book that i know is useless to the newbie, then i get slammed for pointing that out, then i see that someone has another line to sell, i gotta say that that person is not helping the new guy other than by lightening their wallet.

I missed that. Good observation.

[petevm]

Sorry to go on again! I failed to mention that it is not viable to 'buy' your way into the winner's circle by throwing lot's of money at it. Any improvement thru this avenue will not have taught you how to shoot. Firstly, try to evaluate the 'Potential' of your existing gear (can help to have a more experienced person shoot the rig and declare it's potential and maybe identify some underlying basic fault). Once you have a handle on what it can do it's up to you to live up to that potential - read those books that talk of shooting techniques and wind-reading. OK now we have progressed to NEEDING better gear - re-read those books on rifle and ammo prep and establish a new 'Potential' for your existing rifle and live up to it. Having gotten to this stage you will be able to justify the cost of new and better gear - without wearing it out for no good purpose. Now read those books that go into the real fine tuning of rifle and ammo so as to establish a potential for this up-market stuff. Meanwhile I expect you to have re-read anything regarding reading the conditions numerous times and trying to correlate these writings with your own findings. Also I expect you will have sought advice on these matters from those who have demonstrated their ability to read conditions etc.

Pete

[Tony Z]

While on the subject of long range shooting, one of the things that one will see when reading this infamous book , is that it leans toward the the high BC VLD bullet. I have many reasons why i don't use them, too long to explain why and would no doubt receive lots of criticism for saying it, so i will let others tell you of their inconsistency. My main criticism.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?753 ... of-Bergers

I will add that a bullet that is measuring +/- 4 thou variation BL in a single box, is a bullet most everyone i know would reject as junk. Yet someone claims this to be good???? Maybe i am missing something or my expectations are far too high.

[a.JR]

I would like to see all my fellow Heavy Gun competitors switch over to the Bergers .. The two lots i had measured up to .016 diff on bearing surface , .030 on AOL , 184.0 to 185.1 gns and .021 on B to O .. They also shot just like they measured.. Yep thats some quality control for ya ..JR.. Jeff Rogers.. they had *for pig control only * on em ,not really ,i put that on

[justjeff]

I guess the moral of the story, and a lesson for new shooters, is this, he who gets there first doesn't always win, and he with the highest BC doesn't always win. Pick a bullet that is consistant in terms of measurements, and Juenke if you can. Consistancy and uniformity is everything. An example, I currently shoot 200gr SMK in 30 cal, I bought 1400, 2 batchs. I borrowed TZ's Juenke, and gave up measuring them after 800, as I had yet to find one over 5.5. If your choice of projectile can do this sort of thing, you stand half a chance of seeing what you, and your gun, can do. Can't say it enough, it isn't the fastest cartridge, or the highest BC, but the most consistant that can win.

All this provided the organic thing at the back does it's job.

Jeff

[wadcutter]

Berger no good?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... ic-wilson/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... e-results/

Berger’s Stecker Nails Small Group
Notably, Berger Bullets Master Bulletsmith Eric Stecker shot the smallest group in the entire competition, a stunning 0.054″ in the 10.5-lb class at 100 yards. Yes that’s 0.054 for FIVE rounds — it appears those Berger guys do know how to make some pretty good projectiles.

[a.JR]

Gee Waddy , If you last long enough in shooting LR ,then you may come to know that 100 yd performances mean Squat past 999yds ,little alone 1800 yds, but i guess you must sell bullets as well as books hey..JR..Jeff Rogers

Berger no good?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... ic-wilson/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... e-results/

Berger’s Stecker Nails Small Group
Notably, Berger Bullets Master Bulletsmith Eric Stecker shot the smallest group in the entire competition, a stunning 0.054″ in the 10.5-lb class at 100 yards. Yes that’s 0.054 for FIVE rounds — it appears those Berger guys do know how to make some pretty good projectiles.

[alpal]

Hi people,
I believe Richard Wilder?s aussie record 2.1 something inch light gun record for 5 shots @ 1000yds was shot with bergers in 6.5x47. Can't be too bad hey what?
Cheers,
alpal.

[kjd]

Fellas,
I don't think demonizing Norm is fair, Wadcutter is a stand up guy who was only trying to help just because he's selling something doesn't mean he is a monster.

[macca]

If you sort your bergers into lots of groups or luck onto a good batch they are good projectiles.
The trouble is they need to be sorted into lots of little groups.
Some other projectiles don't, need as many piles and perform in a consistent manner.One would hope bergers own gunsmith would get a good batch of pills.
I use bergers but get very frustrated by the sorting.
In comparison my last batch of 284 168gr sierras was in three piles.I have no affiliation with them other then I buy their bullets.
I don't have any degrees,I am not really sure I understand ballistics theory.
What I do have is a lot of trigger time and an awful lot of worn out barrels and my own drop charts that I know work and they go out a long,long way.

A lot of records are one off things.Lots of breeds of rifle and projectile companies will hold them at different times.What we shooters are looking for is consistency over all our shoots.
Yes I would love to be able to say I have shot the smallest group at this and that range but in all honesty I would like to be able to say I have the smallest ten target agg more.This shows I can shoot day in and day out in all types of weather and conditions.I didn't just have the planets align for a one off.

To the original poster.Read what you want, follow PVM's advice.Pay attention to TonyZ and ajr,rinso and others who shoot this and get results.Get onto the the US forums and pick through the propaganda and look at the results and see who is up there week in week out in the field you want to shoot. A lot of the advice here is Bench rest. I have taken a lot of that over to long range hunting which is where wadcutter is coming from.I have been shooting that for a long time,well before it was popular.
I have learnt more about shooting by shooting and listening then anything else. My father taught me never to rely solely on technology because it will and does fail.Use it as an aid but learn to learn through experience,either your or someone elses.
But most of all have some fun.
cheers

[Tony Z]

Here are some useful links for those wishing to import bullets or books, yes even those dreaded Bergers

http://www.reloadinginternational.com/c ... b74968d5f5

If you go to the home page it goes through a step by step desciption of how to get bullets into Aus. Just follow the links.

And that book.....

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=4 ... nd_Edition

[wadcutter]

Its OK Keith, were are only having some fun fishing. Plenty of bites to be had.

Hey a.JR, here is a book that you could read. God knows you need help in this area.
http://www.amazon.com/Dictionary-Diplom ... _lmf_tit_1

[a.JR]

Your to kind Waddy or Norm or whoever , the last guys to disagree with me said i was a great shooter but an arsehole, softer approach hey .. I failed in diplomacy back in 5th grade so no i won't read it or Litz's book .. All you had to do was start your 1st post in this thread with (i sell this book and i think it's a good read ) and then pay for the ad and i would not have said a thing .. What i don't like is somebody seeming like they are one of the bunch while having a vested interest in the recomendation , but it takes all types to make up a world.. JR..Jeff Rogers.. guess your christmas card isn't goin to arrive this year huh