Tony Z wrote:
In regard to Litzs' book, i would be interested to see who or how one could do better at long range competitive shooting by reading it considering it has zero information about actual rifle or component preparation or development
Tony,
If you shoot long range you will quickly realize that finding an extra 0.1" reduction in group size at 100 yards through component preparation and developement is of no importance what so ever, compared to a sound knowledge base in the effects of long range ballistics.
Ammunition preparation is important, but when your bullet is being blown 10 feet or more off target at 1000 yards it is a minor consideration.
It is distinctly possible to get great results at LRBR without having read books like Litz.s or for that matter even having a balistics chart .. I know that for a fact and i really have difficultly trying to take any recommendations or advise from anyone that is simply trying to flog you something.. As soon as i hear the DANOZ direct speel i turn off instantly because it's a f...in site easier to just talk about it than to go out and achieve it on the target face.. The guys i listen to are the one's with the runs on the board 1st and for most, a lot of those will pass on the latest snipit of real info without any mention of the almighty dollar even though they may have spent a lot of time and money to get there.. Lucky we are still able to have individual opinion's hey..JR..Jeff Rogers
wadcutter wrote:
Tony,
If you shoot long range you will quickly realize that finding an extra 0.1" reduction in group size at 100 yards through component preparation and developement is of no importance what so ever, compared to a sound knowledge base in the effects of long range ballistics.
Ammunition preparation is important, but when your bullet is being blown 10 feet or more off target at 1000 yards it is a minor consideration.
When the scoring center ring is 0.5" in diameter. I'll take every 0.1" I can get from ammo preparation. That's 20% of the smallest ring on my target.
Why on earth would you give that up? I wish I could afford to be that arrogant?
The biggest problem with Litz's book is that most of it's proponents don't actually understand the implications of what he's saying but they worship it like some bible.
m12vlp wrote:
The biggest problem with Litz's book is that most of it's proponents don't actually understand the implications of what he's saying but they worship it like some bible.
The OP asked for suggestions on books to read. I suggested Litz book and the knives come out. What is it that you blokes have against the author? How many of you have even read it?
Edition 1 or 2??? The man wrote a book on Ballistics not the bible! Get a life.
Mr Litz knows more than anyone here about ballistics and can shoot better than all here as well. If you don't believe me you can compete against him in Brisbane in August at the world long range championships. He was the top shooter in the warm up held there late last year so you had better bring your "A" game.
If you don't like the book then dont buy it. You obviously know everything about shooting and the book will be of no use to you anyway! Unreal you blokes.
You fellas realize what you guys are saying is applicable to all books right? Don't matter if it's shooting or not. Books are very valuable tools in education on any subject.
I don't know why some of you are saying they are not worth anything.
m12vlp wrote:
The biggest problem with Litz's book is that most of it's proponents don't actually understand the implications of what he's saying but they worship it like some bible.
The OP asked for suggestions on books to read. I suggested Litz book and the knives come out. What is it that you blokes have against the author? How many of you have even read it?
Edition 1 or 2??? The man wrote a book on Ballistics not the bible! Get a life.
Mr Litz knows more than anyone here about ballistics and can shoot better than all here as well. If you don't believe me you can compete against him in Brisbane in August at the world long range championships. He was the top shooter in the warm up held there late last year so you had better bring your "A" game.
If you don't like the book then dont buy it. You obviously know everything about shooting and the book will be of no use to you anyway! Unreal you blokes.
I may be wrong (wouldnt be the first time hey ) but I think that TZ & chicken legs were saying was the fact that no matter how much you read you simply must get out and do the real thing.
In the long range game you may be getting pushed 10 inches by the wind but knowing that every bullet is being pushed exactly the same 10 inches makes a huge difference.
Ballistics are a guide to real world events but rarely are they able to truly recreate actual events ie the wind is never constant over the distance the bullet travels that means constant recalulation.
Its great to have an understanding of these things but its also just as good to simply know how to read wind and have a very well tuned load with the best available components.
You can be the greatest race car driver ever born and have zero knowledge of what makes it all work.
Hey Wadcutter, If you think that reading BL's books is going to help you beat me at a bench match at 1000yds then i have a really good low milage Bridge i'd like to sell you(one owner) .. I say that because the only thing that will help you win is to listen to the people that actually compete and then put the time in learning the ropes of 1K benchrest matchs because the High power style events won't help you one little bit..JR..Jeff Rogers
wadcutter wrote:
Tony Z wrote:
Ammunition preparation is important, but when your bullet is being blown 10 feet or more off target at 1000 yards it is a minor consideration.
The questioned asked was "recommend any good books on reloading for accuracy in long range shooting, and also the skills and tips relating to shooting long range?".
Mate, go to a match. Talk to the guys doing the numbers. Keep clear of the marketing hype and look closely at the statistics of your sport. Sadly, long range shooting has little in the way of the written word that is of a direct relevance to what you just asked and in many ways what works for one does not always work for another. But in your favor there is a whole fraternity of shooters willing to pass on all the necessary information. Unfortunately there are no short cuts and like i said before, everyone has an opinion. You will have to choose what is best for your requirements.
Perhaps before you question TZ's credentials in long range shooting, you might like to review the top 50 groups spreadsheet posted on this forum by JR. TZ's name appears in it a lot more than yours I am guessing, but not only that, he has helped build guns which have shot the greater proportion of the results.
I have Litz's book, and quite frankly, it isn't as good as 'Understanding Firearm Ballistics' by Robert Rinker in explaining the mechanics of both internal and external ballistic. I know, I have a copy of that one too. Litz's book is good if you are looking to build a long range gun, as you can compare real world data. In fact it strongly reinforces the go 30cal path, just by the proliferation of 30 cal match type bullets listed.
Other titles I have found helpful include;
Precision Shooting at 1000 Yards, has a whole heap of Precion Shooting Articles
The Benchrest Shooting Primer
The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy
Rifle Accuracy Facts
Sierra 6 Ballistics Software
and of course the 2 titles previously mentioned.
And before you go questioning my credentials, I also appear in the top 50, and have a degree in applied science, so yes, I do understand what's in these books.
And at the end of the day, it doesn't mean jack if you can't pick a wind flag.
Sometimes it just comes down to natural curiosity as to what's going on and why.
I know that nothing equates to range time like range time itself, but at the end of the day, I a curious git, and would like to know the answers to the why's and such, so I'll buy books like Brian Litz's to get some understanding about ballistics. If that knowledge helps me a tiny fraction more, then so be it, but I don't expect a book read would make me an AJR beater.
Only range time and putting into practice what would be gained by reading the theory would do that
SnipeWench wrote:Sometimes it just comes down to natural curiosity as to what's going on and why.
I know that nothing equates to range time like range time itself, but at the end of the day, I a curious git, and would like to know the answers to the why's and such, so I'll buy books like Brian Litz's to get some understanding about ballistics. If that knowledge helps me a tiny fraction more, then so be it, but I don't expect a book read would make me an AJR beater.
Only range time and putting into practice what would be gained by reading the theory would do that
+1 to that Bec, and I reckon that goes for all disciplines. Nothing beats going to the line and applying what has been learnt, whether from books or word of mouth. The help which has been freely given to me over the years in the various disciplines has been of a lot more worth to me than anything I have read. And luckily, my skill level allows me to listen to just about any advice and it has a high potential to improve my scores.
But I still keep reading for alternative views and info.
This certainly seems the place for alternative views at the moment!
Jeff wrote:And at the end of the day, it doesn't mean jack if you can't pick a wind flag
a.JR wrote:Hey Wadcutter, If you think that reading BL's books is going to help you beat me at a bench match at 1000yds then i have a really good low milage Bridge i'd like to sell you(one owner) .. I say that because the only thing that will help you win is to listen to the people that actually compete and then put the time in learning the ropes of 1K benchrest matchs because the High power style events won't help you one little bit..JR..Jeff Rogers
a.JR,
That's a fair call. 1000 yard BR is your game not mine.
Make the comp 1 single cold bore shot at various size targets at various distances from 800 yards out to 1800 yrds and see how you go. That is my game.
At the end of the day we are all talking the same points on this subject but looking at it from different directions and our own narrow field of experience.
A book will not make you an expert and on that I totally agree.
No good getting into a pissing contest.
Hell Waddy, I only got a little one ,so i can't winn,but you started the pissin contest.. If you think i would tackle any other form of competition i set my sights on in a different manner then you know less about human nature than you do about long range accuracy ..JR..Jeff Rogers JR
wadcutter wrote:
a.JR wrote:Hey Wadcutter, If you think that reading BL's books is going to help you beat me at a bench match at 1000yds then i have a really good low milage Bridge i'd like to sell you(one owner) .. I say that because the only thing that will help you win is to listen to the people that actually compete and then put the time in learning the ropes of 1K benchrest matchs because the High power style events won't help you one little bit..JR..Jeff Rogers
a.JR,
That's a fair call. 1000 yard BR is your game not mine.
Make the comp 1 single cold bore shot at various size targets at various distances from 800 yards out to 1800 yrds and see how you go. That is my game.
At the end of the day we are all talking the same points on this subject but looking at it from different directions and our own narrow field of experience.
A book will not make you an expert and on that I totally agree.
No good getting into a pissing contest.
) but I think that TZ & chicken legs were saying was the fact that no matter how much you read you simply must get out and do the real thing. 
