Does the gun make the shooter or vice versa.???

[native hunter]

G"day All,
This topic is one of those topics that will never be answered with a correct answer.!!
Way to many variables to consider.
There are factory guns out there that a custom would not compete against and vice versa, It usually comes down to how we the shooter perform on the day and its a big mental game.
My first day at the nationals I ran in 23rd on the first day and thought oh well, that was an experience and I learnt lots from the three cards I shot in the difficult wind.
The second day I thought ,I surely cant do any worse and just got into it,came in 5th for the day.!!
What changed,nothing really,just a better understanding of the conditions on the range and being able to identify and adapt to them.
I dont shoot a full custom, barrel and tuner are after market, but thats it.
I knew the gun was up to it and it was my fault that i failed on the first day.
At this point my confidence is high and my ability needs a bit of polishing,I will most likely never win a national title but im sure i can do well enough to do my gun the justice it deserves.
Would I spend the dollars on a full custom,??Yeah if I had dollars to burn, but thats not the case and I dont think I would achieve much if any over what im shooting now.
I agree with a.JR, a long term agg result will beat a one off great group or agg anytime,consistency the key.!!
Believe in yourself and results will follow.
Regards
Native

[SnipeWench]

I've been shooting for a year a a half or so now. I bought an awesome rifle a few months after starting, and since then... well you all know what I've achieved to date. Most recent was the TRA Nationals 50m win. Was all that success simply because of the gun I'd bought, or the fact I grew as a shooter?

So I went into the TRA Nationals Dual Range Championships (20m + 90m) with a _lot_ of confidence, and also the attitude that I had already got what I wanted, the Dual Range would be for shits-n-giggles.

We did 20m first up, and I came 3rd for the day, some 6 points behind the leader.

That night, I came down with a head cold, had no sleep, runny nose, sniffles, coughs, feeling cold, all that.

Guess what? I failed the 90m, came 3rd last in A Grade for the day I think, and 5th overall, because I pulled enough out of the last 40 shots to make _something_ of the final score. I was disappointed in the 90m result, as my practice a few days prior were all good at 90m.

Being sick makes one lose focus or concentration or something.... Oh well, there's always next year I suppose, if they do Dual Range.

Another quick story, and I've said it here before too. One of our top shooters at my local club was having problems with his rifle off the bench. One Sunday, he asked me to have a go of it. I proceeded to put something like 20 shots into the 10-ring on the TRA benchrest card. Good rifle. He commented to me that I was watching the flags across the entire range, not just the one in front of me. So we both found out that the rifle has potential, but he has to do his bit to get it to consistently hit the 10.

[Rinso]

You need a good rifle ie one that will be competitive. A poor rifle wont shoot for anyone.
The better shooter wins when all else is roughly the same.
That said improving your gear to comp standard will increase results but only to a point.

What makes a great comp shooter ???

The real answer here is not about gear or base skills in my experience its the simple things that make a difference ie
Commitment .. be there and be ready to shoot to win
Preparation .. be prepared all ammo, gear well maintained, made and used
Knowledge ... Know what you need to know or go and learn it
Practice .. you cant just rock up and hope, put in the time to know your gear and ability

Above all ... Luck ... only a small bit but makes all the difference as many have the rest covered its luck that seperates us on the day quite often ie
A good bench draw, a detail with slightly better conditions, a good run of bullets to name a few

Suffice to say its great to win and great to win often but being there and competing is the greatest part of the fun. Good mates, good days should happen more than it does.

[m12vlp]

My story...

My wife and I (both average shooters) have run the same factory rifle for 2 years in F-Class and done ok but both maxing out at about 110/120. But an upgrade of my powder scales upped our average scores by about 5 points each.

More recently a new match barrel has us both averaging above 115/120 with the wife getting a 119/120 and me adding my first OPM medals to the cabinet in the last few weeks including one picked up while shooting with a head cold. I nearly shot a 60/60 except I psyched out on the last shot and dropped it into the 5 ring for a 59/60. Shooter failure.

But at a rimfire shoot recently I sprayed the TRA target such that it looked as though I was using a shotgun. But I can shoot above 115/120 in F-Class? Was the culprit the shooter or the equipment? In this case the equipment as I was using bad ammunition.

The true answer to this question is that the results will only match the capability lowest component. If the rifle won't perform to the necessary accuracy then the results won't happen. If the shooter cannot perform to the necessary accuracy then the results won't happen. Luck will send up the odd good result but the consistency won't be there.

Now this may be contentious for me to say it but a shooter can never learn to shoot beyond the capability of their equipment.

How do you learn to make judgement calls on wind if you make a call and it fails? Did it fail because it was the rifle or because you made the wrong call? We can only learn from our own mistakes but it's hard when your equipment is in there making mistakes too.

[native hunter]

G"day All,
Good to see this post created some discussion on equipment and ability.!
It brings me to the question of-
When does a shooter know when thats as good as they are going to be.??
If you have a rifle that shoots well and I mean puts the odd possible on the board and shoots nice averages/aggs and groups and you still cant seem to get any consistency with it, at what point do you say well thats as good as im going to get.??
I know back a few years ago I shot DTL clays and in 18 months I made it up to B grade and stayed there for another twelve months and never improved and didnt go backwards so decided that was it for me, time to try something else.!!
I knew I was never going to be any better no matter what.!!
I know its not about winning all the time but there has to some motivator involved to keep an interest in what you do.
We have a few older blokes at one of the clubs i shoot at and week in week out they shoot terrible scores but they turn up regardless and i must say looking at them really does make you realize that its not about that custom rifle or .1 group or perfect score,to them its just being able to do what they love and enjoy.!!
I suppose I got a little of track here but anyway.!!
I know I will NEVER shoot a .000 group or a 750.75 IRB agg but Im going to die trying.!!!
Regards
Native

[shane]

Some good posts here, with some very good points.

My feeling is its a combination of the two, and depending on the dificulty of the match it will decide which is the weak link, the shooter or the rifle. If you have a tough match that the shooter cannot keep the focus up on its all over even with a good rifle, or shoot a tough target with an average rifle the shooter beats himself up and blames himslef for the poor perfomance, unless he knows how good he can shoot and picks its the rifle as the weak link.

I think Bec went about this the best way, started with a top accuracy rifle and pushed herself to top standards, knowing that she was the weak link and needed to practice and work it all out, which she appears to have done no problems at all.
cheers,
Shane

[m12vlp]

When does a shooter know when thats as good as they are going to be.??

That's a very tricky question.

I feel that "skill shooting" like T/R, Service Rifle, Silhouette, 3P, shotguns, etc you are really reliant on your ability to build the physical and reflexive skills needed to perform.

With supported shooting. BR, F-Class a smart operator can typically tailor their equipment to overcome many their physical limitations; which is what I do. If I hit my limit I improve a piece of gear and it takes me forward a bit further.

As for keeping yourself motivated. The last thing I could ever consider to be a Saturday afternoon sport is sitting in the garage sinking piss watching TV. I need to be out doing something. In my time it's been sailing, motorbike riding and now shooting. Just being out of the house doing something other than the mundane is motivation enough; why else would we still turn up at the range when it's pissing down and we know that there's not going to be any shooting?

Some activities are more stimulating than others though. I prefer F-Class and B/R because I can tinker with the gear through the week as well as shooting on the weekend. Can't get enough shooting otherwise.

[Tony Z]

I would have to say that in the center fire class, and i am talking BR, the biggest single thing holding back the shooter is the rifle, or more to the point, ones ability to tune that rifle. Once that bridge is crossed, the learning (winning) curve is greatly accelerated.
If you take my recent case, last year i shot 1K with a great rifle and some simply superb bullets in a tiny 6 BR cartridge where that rifle, not me, shot new agg records in both group and score. I can't read a flag for shit, i don't even look at flags these days, ever, know nothing about mirage, but do know enough about tuning rifles and bracketing statistics that i could snare those records. Quite simply, the rifle did the numbers, i just supplied the trigger finger. I know this because the rifle was given to a good friend of mine to use earlier this year, Alan Hickmott, where he has never shot 1K and his first group was a screamer where the first 4 shots went into 1.350" and a tiny flick of the flags cost him a sub 2" group. The rifle did the work and shot a 3.9xx" group and followed it up for another small group and Alan took the day agg by a long way. Beginners luck? Bullshit. Great rifle. Loaned the rifle to Jeff H the match after. Same story, first time with a LG, takes out the day agg as well as small group. See a pattern forming?
Anyone ever seen JR shoot? Can't see a flag, poor bastard has eye irritation problems, so like me just brackets the condition, uses the best bullet in the world, can tune a rifle like no-one else, and has not shot a Fly score under 230 for as long as i can recall, shoots more small groups and high scores in 1K than anyone else in the country. Again a great rifle/tune whatever. I have sat there for years watching that rifle and Jeff, watching the flags and thinking, hah, he's fucked that one up for sure. The flags turned for the last 4 shots, they gotta be off the paper. Nope, they shifted out of the x ring into the 10 ring. Fuck i gave up long ago trying to work this shit out.
After seeing and reading some recent emails from Matt Klien, the current world record holder of the IBS HG score and group, the story is the same, bracket and shoot, and the rifle does the numbers. Once again a great rifle brought about by a great tuner using bullets of known performance spread across tuning through two rifles. It is rather interesting reading into the insight of his belief that once you start, don't stop even if the flags change. That is certain doom for a small group as you will never second guess the condition. Well the statistics he has for 2010 says he is right more than wrong but i feel it may be only applicable to his home range. Who knows? I certainly don't.

Now for me, the bullets are gone, the tune is gone and the aggs have gone and the barrel sits in the corner awaiting good bullets, one day. So the search is on for a new formula in another caliber as bullets like that are just simply too hard to find. I spent the Iron Man weekend shooting three different combinations/rifles over three days and fucked up every time. The scores prove that with a near last performance in 1K and a lowly 217 score in the Fly.
Great rifles/bullets/barrels win, shooters only need to learn how to tune. A simple statement, but such experience is only found through time and much shared information. We have all heard about the barrels that hummmm and how they shoot through conditions. Well i believe that that comes from the tune and i do most certainly believe that conditions can be shot through. I watch JR do it every fucking match. So does Jeff H and it shits us to tears. I hate that gun. Surely, by the law of averages, one of the 6 barrels it has had, all by different manufacturers, one of them would have had to be a dunga?

[justjeff]

I can't agree with Tony Z enough. I started in 2008 with a 700 Rem SPS Stainless, in 270Win. Over time and many domestics, gradually upgrading bits as I went. Trigger first, then the stock, then the barrel, then the optics. Each upgrade saw me shoot smaller groups and higher scores. The really big changes started to happen when I started to improve the uniformity of the ammunition. The barrel had about 3000 rounds down it, I was on the third generation of the stock, so decided to go to a new barrel, new cartridge, and start again. Now, with the 300 Redneck, I measure bullets in 8, that's right eight, different dimensions. Have I seen a result? Not too sure when the last 1000yrd heavy gun comp was shot where JR didn't shoot small group for the day, but at last I took one.
My brother moved north recently, and never having shot long range, proceeded to match my performances, with my gun. Proof enough that if the equipment is good, and tuned well, anyone can do a reasonable job.

Jeff

[220]

I can't agree with Tony Z enough.

If you are talking only BR matches then yes it is very much the rifle/ammo combination, the skill is in tuning the equipment and any reasonable shot would be in the running, they may not win but would definetly be competative against a great shot with an average combination.
Still stand by what I said for the non benchrest events, if the limiting factor is the shooter then a great shot with an average combination will out perform the best gun in the world in the hands of a mug.

I guess that means if you want to be competative in a shooting event and don't want to spend top dollar you are better off shooting events other than benchrest.

[Ackley Improved]

How I see it, if you cant read the flags/pick the conditions, it doesnt matter how good the rifle is, at 500m Fly the shots will be lost.

[native hunter]

G"day All
And that previous post sums it all up.!!
Native

[Tony Z]

Maybe yes, maybe no. You can pick the conditions or even read the flags, or can i say, think you can read the flags, but then the shots still get lost. So where do you turn to? The rifle is possibly crap or you can't read a flag. So which is the culprit and how do you determine that?
I will put it this way, in regard to the Fly, a great rifle with poor wind skills could still net a 200+ score. I have done that often. Poor rifle, great wind skills and you will not net 200. Great skills and a great rifle will net 230, maybe more. Great rifle and great conditions will net ???. We said a while ago on this very forum, the perfect world and 270 Fly score was easily attainable with a heavy gun. Ian got close, Stuart got closer and PVM still astounds me with a LG to 250+. That i would not have picked. LGs are just a bitch to drive for five consistent scores, even in a 6 Dasher. That i do know.
I think what it comes down to is learning to know when it is the rifle, and then learning to tell when it is you picking the "wrong" time to go, or the right time to not go once you know the rifle is great.

To further outline why for me i believe it is more about the rifle and the tune, is a recent addition of those to beat in the US at 1K. Scott Fletcher has for a very long time been one of the 1K shooters that kept running a 338 cal. He did this for a long time and well after most others binned 338 and did so because all the known bullets at that time were junk and they then opted for a 30 cal or something else with a view to shoot more consistent group aggs. Just recently he changed to a new projectile that was being developed by another well known US smith. Virtually over night Scott goes on to win two major shoots in succession in the group category, and by a long ways where he shoots 4 inch groups while the others shoot big, and some way big. So did he suddenly have the light bulb moment and learn to read a flag, or did he reap the benefits of this new 338 pill? If you think he did the former, then i reckon i have a bridge to sell you. Sure he must have learned something about the wind and mirage in all the years leading up to this time, but that bullet turned it right around for him. Of that i have no doubt.

Having said that and if all things (rifles) were equal, it would be my clear view that head to head, the best with the conditions would come to the fore.

Unfortunately in LR BR not all is equal and unlike SR BR where the skill of the shooter is more to the fore IMO, the skill or maybe even luck of the tuner is what i feel is more the deciding factor at the longer distances. The one major distinction i see where we here in Aus will fall behind so many in the US in regards to group aggs at these longer distances is that many of these guys tune at the distance they shoot at. Some of them do it at night with the aid of weather stations on the very ranges they compete at. Others do tuning at distances close to what they compete at where they can and there is one Youtube video i know of where a Williamsport shooter shows his ladder test at 1K. Who does that here? The point is they spend time, lots of time tuning under the best controls they can to get the smallest groups they can. More often than not the news filters out what they are doing, how and where they are doing it, but more importantly they move up the agg leader board when they find the right formula. Shooting in varying conditions to learn the aim or hold off seems non existent. But if it were me, i certainly would not be tuning a rifle from those results, but be using a tuned rifle to see how bad i am at guessing what 2.5 knots of wind error looks like on paper. That is what i know i could guess at best case scenario, plus or minus 2.5 knots or 20 +/- inches at 1K with the bullet i use. Forty inch drift if i make the worst case wind read and then add in the group potential of the rifle and 45 inches is easily achievable. Now i have never shot a group larger than 22 inches at 1K with a HG and i know that i cannot read a flag to better than 2.5 knots speed differential, so i can only deduce that other factors have enabled me to shoot the vast majority of my groups under 14 inches. Many under 10 inches and some around 7 and even 6 inches. I know i am not talented enough to "wind read" a group that small so i can only deduce that it has to be the rifle doing the rest and making up for my shortfall. For me to shoot a 5 inch group, or the full potential of the old HG i once owned, i would have to read the wind to "zero" error or maybe a very small error and have the rifle somehow shoot around a 2 inch potential group at 1K. Pure fucking fiction. But i have shot a 5 inch group, even a couple.

But Matt Klien shot a 5.xxx six match and 6.xxx 10 match group aggregate for 2010 from 10 matches (think about that for a minute), and then adds a 99.xx six match and a 96.xx ten match score aggregate from the same 10 matches. So how good does the wind read for that work out to be? Less than half a knot differential across 10 matches over an entire year with a 3 inch rifle potential. (His WR stands and just under 3") So was it the rifle or him? He has two rifles, three now, and tunes them at 1K in controlled conditions, that we know, and has openly stated that no-one, including himself, can read shit at 1K in regards to conditions. Luck? Maybe for one match, but not a whole year and ten matches.

[m12vlp]

Tony has it right.

It's the same reason that we can have p650 shooters out in the calm morning trying F-Class who've never pulled a trigger in their life and they can shoot 58/60. The rifle is in tune and the conditions mean they don't have to adjust so they can out shoot many of the regulars.

But we get the old guys seeing their scores and declaring that they're these amazing naturally gifted shooters because it's just too hard for them to understand (or they don't want to) that it's an amazingly in tune rifle doing all the work.

Then comes the afternoon and the winds that come with it and these old guys who can read some wind work hard to get average scores with their out of tune rifles while they sit in amazement at the top shooters wondering how they they do it and declaring them to be magnificent wind readers. But when you talk to the top shooters you soon learn of the efforts they put into their reloads and their rifle tuning...

Of course in years past with issued ammunition and inaccurate rifles across the board the person winning was the best wind reader with the best handling skills and perhaps equally important the best tactician. People find that difficult to let go off.

[a.JR]

Hi All , I think some of the respondents just do not get the Benchrest 1000yd bit.. Probably because of the amount times they actually get to shoot it .. Think about your 1000yd results and consider i have shot a 60 competition targets with my present Heavy gun in the last 5 years.. I seriously doubt there any more than a couple of guys in the world that can slow pick their way through a ten shot target at 1K and regularly come up with a 1/4 moa result by evaluating the flag changes and then firing when they think the conditions are the same .. BUT they will not get those results 10 times in a year no matter who they are .. Tony has hit the nail on the head by including the new world record holder's call on how 1000yd bench has to be shot *If you want to shoot real small * that is..If all you want is to *Get em in the blue* then disregard the following.. In Matt K's experience holding off to suit what the flags tell you is a receipe for average group sizes .. Use the sighter period to evaluate the effects on the point of impact , wind the scope to place the group in the centre at the most consistant period and run em like the devil is after ya .. For this you require a gun that will shoot 2 inch groups at a 1000yds and this is a lot harder to achieve than quite a number of guys think .. JR.. Jeff Rogers..ps.. I will always believe that most shooters are better than their guns are so fix the gun first!