Max Score and or Min group for LG at 500m

[justjeff]

Guys,

What do you think will be the numbers in 1 year? 5 years?

Why

Jeff

[chappo555]

I've seen a "possible" 60.5 at Leeton 300m fly and a group of .6 at Wagga 300m. I don't think it'll be too long before we get a possible at 500 and a sub inch group. ( probably already happened) Right shooter in the ideal conditions will see 270+. Can't say why just my feelings.
I think the gear and the shooters are getting better all the time.
Just wish I could shoot as well as some of those guys and gals.

[Rinso]

Well I won the 2006 Federal Cup with a 227.5 and if I recall the top 12 cut off at around 190.
Now 2011 266.6 to win and my 221.2 did not even look like making the top 12.
A few years back a 60.4 was shot by Jaegan Peet at the Federal Cup on a warmer target.
There were plenty of mid 50 targets shot and three shooters broke 250 and several high 240's were shot so I would say that 50 per target is getting to be the norm and group size as a result is 2-3 inches centred.

So I reckon minumum 50 points a card with the mid to high 50's needed for a win, 2 inch group averages

[a.JR]

Hi jeff , Can't answer your question but i;ll take a bet the PVM could throw some decent light on the subject .. His new record at Canberra of 253 something will probably be there a while so he's your man in Light at present .. Complete results from that match should be posted by mid year with a bit luck, might throw some light over how close the other L/Gs were ..JR..Jeff Rogers

[Tony Z]

I think to make broad and sweeping statements on this topic could be very misleading to a lot of shooters. There is no single element that makes or breaks, it is the entire package. No one single item will make the difference, contrary to some of the Danoz Direct marketing being thrown around lately. No barrel will work without good bullets, no bullet will work without the right tune and no scope or target camera can make up for any shortfalls of any element that makes up a great rifle. The scores and group potential is more about a total package, including the shooter, and then you need wind flags and an ability to read them which also asks the question about the conditions. If the weather is foul, then the scores will be a reflection of that. If the weather is good then the scores will be good. Conversely if the scores are good, it could be deduced that the conditions were good, or that there was a hole that someone found in the conditions that held consistently.



To answer you directly Jeff, i think you have seen the potential of some of the local guns so i would say that the scores and groups will get better all over Australia as time goes on. I too would like to know how you get a light gun to shoot 250+ on the Fly target. This has to be a complete package, 6 mil or not, as any LG is hard to drive. Maybe PVM can enlighten us on this super little LG as it has some unique thoughts behind it from what i have been told. Light guns seem to be the first choice, naturally, so it will be enlightening to a whole bunch of people if Pete could share. Having run a 6 mil all last year for 1K where i clearly know their limitations, it would be scary as to what scores this rifle of Peter's could get if it were a 30 cal

[petevm]

Hi Guys,

Thanks to Jeff, Jeff and Tony for giving me an opportunity to discuss my thoughts. I will be a bit pressed for time until Tuesday morning for some in depth stuff but to whet your appetite - that rotten little 'Red 7' has been around for 5 years and is still loaded the same despite the wear in the barrel. Started out with .015" jam into the lands but now jumps about .050". Amazingly it does not seem to matter, which is lucky as we now have a number of Dashers (all equally capable) and we can feed them from one box of ammo (all Maddco barrels cut with the same reamer - .271" neck & .100" freebore - to virtually identical headspace - naturally I full-length re-size every time) Cases are not neck turned or even sorted by neck wall variation - the F/L sizing allows the tail (bullet) to wag the dog (case). Once that bolt handle is down the bullet cannot be other than pointed straight down the bore. More on Tuesday!

Pete

[petevm]

Firstly a correction - that incredible Warmer target that Jaegen shot in Canberra was actually a 59.4. The last shot stepped out and pulled the group size to over 1".
Now back to the original question of where we might be in 5 years time. This is really in the lap of the gods in terms of shooting conditions. If every major match has crap conditions then it would be a sheer fluke for any of the existing records to get a nudge. This last Fed Cup saw probably the best conditions for a full day that we have seen there. As always a bit of luck with your allotted detail can make a difference too. Reviewing the conditions at the end of the day I would say that details one and three were about on par with two having a slight edge and four being a bit harder than the others. Mirage was not too much of an issue with the exception of detail one 'D' target - this was a shocker. As it happens both myself and Stuart Elliot shot on detail two to set the new marks. I also shot my light gun Dashers in detail four as a heavy gun entry - resulting in 230.0 compared with 253.6 !!! Same shooter same guns - go figure.
So where to from here?? There has been no real improvement in cartridges or bullets in the last 5 years merely an expansion of suitable options (such as the 6.5X47 Lapua). Our VLD bullets keep telling us that they shoot best at 2,800 to 3,000 fps so why push them harder. I tried a 6X47 Lapua only to find that the accuracy was inferior to the 6mm Dasher when run at about 3,200 so I set the barrel back a bit and rechambered as a dasher - bingo! nothing wrong with that barrel. A bigger bullet hole is nice if recoil tolerance permits. Greater visibility of the shot can speed things up a bit and of course the bigger hole reaches further toward centre of the target to maybe pick up the odd point.
Improvements in equipment?? The well-established shooters have been using good gear (both rifles and rests) for years, however more of the others are now bringing their gear up to the same standard and are seeing some benefit. The increasing number of custom actions in use is allowing those who wish to 'speed-shoot' to do so more readily and I have seen some nice groups shot this way - generally not well centred however.
More later, Pete

[petevm]

Back again. Returning to the subject of luck in your bench draw I recall my friend Jason Trotter shot LG on detail one and a second light gun on three for scores of 236 and 238 (I think).
On the subject of records - it's only the match total that keeps getting nudged upward regularly. Light gun small group has stood for ten years and HG for nine. For my own part I can state that a record small group will take a year's worth of luck!!
Let's open that can of worms again - optics. Once again, as commitment and finances allow, more shooters are using decent scopes which helps them lift their game. Nightforce is still the dominant product and I personally continue to run my NF12-42 on about 32X so as to have flags from 150mt to 450mt visible thru the scope. In Canberra I was able to compare my 20 year old Swarovski 20-60X80 with the latest Zeiss 25-75X85 and reckon there is a slight edge in resolution and clarity to the Zeiss. However at no time on the day did I find anything over 50X worth using. At that setting 6mm bullet holes were visible (except
in mirage) and most of the time I could see them thru the rifle scope on 32 to 35X. You can buy yourself a Nightforce BR series 12-42X56 for under $1600; spending more on some other brand will not gain you anything - period. Use the money saved to upgrade some other part of your gear or to buy bullets etc to do more practising.
OK we have eliminated lots of possible contributors to improved results so where does that leave us?? I believe one significant area of improvement is the use of more and better designed wind-flags. In Canberra there was a veritable sea of flags so everyone had something to look at and those who laid their own row had the best of both worlds. Some used traditional 'short range' BR flags on very high poles others (like me) used 'Fly' flags - typically a tall flexible pole with a foam ball and ribbon on top. The ribbon shows the soft wind, the movement of the the ball shows the harder blow. Which is best??? I certainly took on board what other people's BR flags wre telling me as well as monitoring my row of 'Fly' flags. In the end you use what you think best but after evolving the ones I use now I would be inclined to try a mix of both types as the BR style (regardless of whose design) show directional shifts better. So now all that remains is to learn how to read the flags to best effect and find out when not to shoot! There is only one way to do this and that is to practice, practice, practice. I am fortuneate that we now have 6 or more matches at our local club every year. If you can't easily shoot more 'Fly' matches at least get some 'F' class miles under your belt. I recently calculated that in the last ten years I have shot in over 70 'Fly" matches - has to help as I took a while to become consistently competitive. It is in these areas (flags and trigger time) that the future records will be found. Sorry, forgot to mention that as the competition gets bigger and better we keep putting the pressure on ourselves to try harder.
One other area that is important for the shooter to address is the ability to be adaptable when things go askew. Due to an issue with my right shoulder I have been forced to shoot from my left side for the last 3 months. Took some work to re-learn trigger control and a few other things like steering the joy-stick rest with my dodgy right but Fed Cup results show what can be done if you have to.

Shoot straight and often! Pete

[m12vlp]

Thanks Peter.

The things i'm finding most interesting is the 3000fps "limit" for optimum VLD performance and the need for good flags and time spent shooting over them.

As someone with a low budget getting access to useful equipment like good flags is a daunting task. Your 'fly' flags sound like they wouldn't cost the earth to set up.

[dg]

pete

for 500m or 1000yds, there ain't nothing better than them ball flags for visibility at any range with the naked eye, linear to 25-30 knots, sensitivity, response, lack of maintenance, accuracy, no moving parts,ease of erection,durability,range of sizes, virtually no inherent inertia and cost.


cheers
dave g

[tiger]

Flags - I set myself up with a set of home made flags for about $200 including poles to erect them on, about $50 per flag with the ability to put that flag at 5.5m above ground level, all that I do then is get somebody behind my scope and get them to talk me into position for windage and elevation for the flag, bash in a star picket and zip tie the pole to it.

Works well for me, thanks to Mick for helping me set them up at the Fed Cup.

If you want a photo I'll try and post one.

Cheers.

[petevm]

Just another thought - it might be really pretty to look at and have some hypersonic ballistics, but if it's not ACCURATE it's junk with a capital 'J'. Fancy ballistics make 'lazy' shooters - that is, those who think their 'wunda weapon' will cut thru the crap. I know from experience that it's so easy to fire the shot when you have a sub-conscious predeliction to the ability of your ballistic giant-killer's ability to cut a swathe thru the air. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, is unaffected by the wind - only the degree varies; but not by enough to, in most instances, allow us to sacrifice accuracy for 'grunt'. I have more discarded 'wild-cat' dies and cases than I care to think about to attest to the above statement - chasing the dream that the magical combination of fantastic velocity combined with SERIOUS accuracy in the world of long-range shooting must be achievable! Ever since I returned to basics (accuracy at all costs) I have reaped the rewards of my many years of wind reading and improved that area of my match prep.

Pete

[stinkitup]

Pete thats a great insight and heaps of great info. Time pulling the trigger and reading those flags certainly pays off. With regards to proj speed, with the vld's prefering around the 2800-3000 fps mark would flat bases be happier if pushed harder? The SR guys seem to push there lighter FB bullets as fast as they can.

Ryan

[petevm]

I am unable to explain just why the VLD bullets can be less happy at higher velocity - just the way of things it seems. Lighter flat base or boat-tail bullets are not troubled in the same way. The 6mmPPC commonly pushes these in the 65 to 70gn range at around 3300 to 3400 fps without any accuracy issues. I intend to do some testing of the 88gn Hi BC flat based Bergers in a 1 in 10" twist 6mm barrel to see if they are OK at elevated velocities. I understand that JR has plenty of experience with Hi BC flat base bullets in his 30 cal - perhaps he might offer some insights into this subject.

[m12vlp]

I am unable to explain just why the VLD bullets can be less happy at higher velocity - just the way of things it seems. Lighter flat base or boat-tail bullets are not troubled in the same way. The 6mmPPC commonly pushes these in the 65 to 70gn range at around 3300 to 3400 fps without any accuracy issues. I intend to do some testing of the 88gn Hi BC flat based Bergers in a 1 in 10" twist 6mm barrel to see if they are OK at elevated velocities. I understand that JR has plenty of experience with Hi BC flat base bullets in his 30 cal - perhaps he might offer some insights into this subject.

From what I have read the boat tails are very difficult to make consistently and watching what the custom bullet makers do to ensure uniformity I can understand why.

Increasing the velocity of them would mean pushing more high pressure gas past those uneven boat tails as they being to clear the muzzle. I doubt that would do good things to their stability. I expect a flat base would just experience a bit more push.