Throwing shoots... WHY

[Chriswillis696]

I have a Anschutz 2013 BR50, it has normally shoot pretty well but just of lately it has been throwing shots. Ive had a bedding job done on it and a few other little things and im using a lowey turner. What could be the reasons why i am geting these wild shots... On out TRA targets i will be goin fine centre centre centre centre than bang out than back to centre etc im normally shooting 198.17/199.18 etc. Why??

[Tony Z]

Ahhhh, another rimfire shooter finding out about the further uses of the humble house brick. I will let Rinso pass on the how to instructions.


Many reasons a rimfire falls off the perch, ammo, temperature, fouling of the bore, lead build up in the throat, bedding, scope dead, etc. How many rounds has this rifle seen? The reason i ask is that rimfires are very abrasive little creatures. They take a lot of ammo to wear out a barrel, but the throat and crown can wear quite quickly in comparison. Check the crown and the way the slide marks in the bore near the crown appear. An irregularity there is generally a good sign you need a crown. What can sometimes be misleading is that the crown looks uniform, even by the scrub marks, but the crown can still be belled. That is what can cause the "stray". The belling is cause by residue getting pushed out of the bore and accumulating around the muzzle. One day all is fine, the next the thing won't shoot into a bucket. It's as if a switch has been turned off. Very common and i have resurrected many rimfire barrels with a dock of a quarter inch and re-crown.

T

[native hunter]

Chris,
Ive seen that gun shoot 200 after 200,as you say somethings not right.!!
We will get to the bottom of it this week if we can get some good weather.!!
native.

[Brett33]

I hate 2013s, I have played with 4 of them, even fitted my best "Known" barrels to them and could not get them to shoot consistantly.

If all above advice fails, have a real good look at the bedding then head space, barrel clamp pressure, then fit a tunner.

Its crazy that you can get a full custom build for only a little more coin than the 2013, but people still buy them because they are off the shelf in-stead of having to wait 6 to 8 months.

Brett

[chris.tyne]

I dont have a 2013 but have seen to many shoot well to discount them,one thing I see people that know mention is the bedding,get that right and you are well on your way,as for the custom vs 2013 ......................................................$$$$$$$$$ and there must be a sheeeeet load of people not prepared to wait cause I see a lot of Annies on the line.




Regards Chris.

[native hunter]

G"Day All,
Wel I purchased the 1913 BR50 round action and never looked back.!!
Lot to be said about that round action,got it threaded/beaded and custom barrel ,shoots up there with all the custom actions and guns.!!
Regards
Native

[chris.tyne]

G"Day All,
Wel I purchased the 1913 BR50 round action and never looked back.!!
Lot to be said about that round action,got it threaded/beaded and custom barrel ,shoots up there with all the custom actions and guns.!!
Regards
Native

Big thumbs up from me on that one

Regards Chris.

[Brett33]

G"Day All,
Wel I purchased the 1913 BR50 round action and never looked back.!!
Lot to be said about that round action,got it threaded/beaded and custom barrel ,shoots up there with all the custom actions and guns.!!
Regards
Native

Lets see, you buy a $3500 rifle, pull the barrel and turf it, fix the tennon problem by threading it which is hard to do well because it is off centre, Cost $?? but I guess at least $100, buy a Madco at $550 and have it fitted another $150 at least, so you have $4300 invested, I am pretty certain you can get a full custom for less then that, and have a true BR stock.
For example the order I am putting together at the moment Custom Falcon action, Jewell trigger, Broughton barrel, trigger guard, basses, BigStick stock supply parts only $2500, If you gun smith and stock worker cost more than $1000 combined to put it together, find somebody new. So at least $800 better off, thats a case of SK match to run it in and practice.
There are at least 3 people in on the order who are upgrading 2013's. For that fact the best 2013 in Australia at the moment, which has over $5000 invested (not counting Johns labour) in it looks like being replaced by a Hall.
Don't get me wrong some Annies are good, just not all of them and the ones that are have had work done.
Brett

[shane]

Yeh 2013's can make you pull your hair more than most rimfires thats for sure.

Sounds to me like it could be a barrel problem.

On another note, do you clean your tuner or just shoot it? I see alot of guys that shoot rimfire that dont clean their tuners, you can get away with it if your tuned spot is good and will allow a bit of variation but if your tuned near the edge of a sweet spot the build up of crud can effect tune.
cheers,
Shane

[Chriswillis696]

So the 100million dollar question is sell it or keep it. I have played and played with this thing and it just keeps on throwing a shots here and their. I have a maddco barrel ready to put in it, Do u think im wasting my time puting this barrel in? Ive had a bedding job, threaded the action, played around with the tension on the bedding screws currently at 3nm, and am using a lowey turner. Yes shane i do clean the turner ive tryed not cleaning it but seems to work better clean. Ive also played around with different ammo and i keep coming back to eley match. And ive spend hours apon hours turning it. I cant think of what else to do or try!! Whats everyones thoughts sell it buy a 1913 and put the maddco in that.

[Tony Z]

My thoughts, sell the rimfire and buy a good center fire BR rifle. In the end, the center fire will cost less to run. Do the numbers.

The problem i have recently acquired with rimfires is that to spend that amount of money only to be at the mercy of luck where the rifle or the ammo is concerned is very poor logic. You buy a rimfire, toss the stock, the barrel, then new stock, new barrel, bedding and a tuner and then start the relentless search for accuracy. The screws need a certain amount of torque to maintain that accuracy? Horseshit. If it needs torque to shoot, then the bedding is flawed. The problem is that to test ammo, a rimfire as such, is not accurate enough to tell you the bedding is at fault.

There is a difference between bedding and tune. Tune is where a rifle sits 4 shots into a hole and spits one. That is a rifle out of tune and that can be something as simple as the barrel dislikes the bullet, or the barrel is fouling or the rifle just flat does not like that PTC, pressure time curve. Bedding is where the POI shifts. If the POI wanders from group to group in a session or the rifle is zeroed one day and then the next day the impact is in a vastly different location, then that is a bedding problem.

To give you an example so that it stays clear in your head that this is how it is, you can take a good center fire rifle, say in 308, bedded in a conventional manner, then load the 155 SMK, 46.5 grains of 2208 and the rifle will shoot a tiny five shot group at a 100 yards. But then you take the same rifle and reduce the powder charge back to 45.5 grains, and it shoots 3 or 4 into a hole and spits one or two well away. The center of the group impact point is inconsistent because the satellites are erratic and purely random. This also shows up as terrible group sizes. So what do you blame and what are you looking for? Bedding or tune? We know it isn't the bedding because the rifle drills holes and holds POI with the 46.5 grain load. So it has to be the tune. Very easy to gauge in a center fire but in a rimfire, people quickly say, the bedding is fucked and off you go to the doctor to spend more money. See the problem? This is why i say a rimfire is not a good enough test bed to test ammo or conversely have the ammo test the rifle. As far as a test bed goes, they are poor in the simplest way. Eley shoots in this rifle, but Lapua doesn't. Then Lapua shoots really well in that rifle, but it hates Eley. Neither rifle is a good test bed for anything more than the ammo it likes. And neither rifle is a good test bed for the others ammo. It don't shoot so it gets labeled junk.
A good test bed, one that equally tests all ammo, does not exist in a rimfire. You could at this very minute take the two best rimfires in this country into an indoor range, feed them the best ammo you can source, and neither of them will give an identical appraisal of any of that ammo. If you did that with the best two center fires they would both quickly find the best batch of bullets.

Rimfires are at the mercy of the ammo. The bedding may be perfect, but unless you luck on to the right pressure time curve with that ammo, you will never have a shooter. That is where tuners come in as they can alter the PTC. If you cannot get it to shoot with a tuner, sell it.

[Brett33]

Chris I would be interested by what method you have used to thread the tennon on your 2013?

Another question, have you handed the rifle to a known good shooter in good conditions? what were the results? What I am getting at mybe it is technique or the bags (nut behind the butt).

Outside that might be time to try a known good rifle with top ammo in tune to see what you can do, where are you if we at a range at the same time at some stage you are welcome to try my Hall. I will be shooting IRB Nats in Brisbane rifle will be availble on Practice day or at night on the TRA range if somebody is there to open the range for us.

In the long run and you decide to sell and buy a new rifle, I would not recomend another Annie, build a custom, get Shane or Cookie to do it with all the best gear you can afford. I would recomend looking at to copy what works, ie Custom action, USA tapper lapped barrel, Harrel tunner Jewell trgger, and BR stock. Otherwise if my new Falcon outperforms my Hall, the Hall will be for sale if not the Falcon will be for sale. I know of another person who will also have a Hall or Falcon for sale in the end as well. With the dealer bringing in 10 Falcons there might be a bunch of second hand RF on the market by Xmas.

So the 100million dollar question is sell it or keep it. I have played and played with this thing and it just keeps on throwing a shots here and their. I have a maddco barrel ready to put in it, Do u think im wasting my time puting this barrel in? Ive had a bedding job, threaded the action, played around with the tension on the bedding screws currently at 3nm, and am using a lowey turner. Yes shane i do clean the turner ive tryed not cleaning it but seems to work better clean. Ive also played around with different ammo and i keep coming back to eley match. And ive spend hours apon hours turning it. I cant think of what else to do or try!! Whats everyones thoughts sell it buy a 1913 and put the maddco in that.

[SnipeWench]

Another question, have you handed the rifle to a known good shooter in good conditions? what were the results? What I am getting at mybe it is technique or the bags (nut behind the butt).

Sage advice, that!

I'll relate a story I have regarding that advice.

At Sutherland, one of our top shooters is having some problems with his rifle, and he's been trying various batches of ammo et al to try to fix the problem of flyers. This rifle is his prone and bench rifle.

So a few weeks ago, he gave it to me to have a shoot off the bench.

I put 20 shots into the NSWSARAI benchrest card sighter targets. 10 in the top, and 10 in the bottom. The 10 in the top were all inside the 10-ring, and blew the middle of it clear away. A nice and very tight group. I shifted to the middle sighter, and blew the middle of that 10-ring away too, but there was a tad more vertical stringing. All shots were still 10's.

He couldn't believe it. One comment he said was "I've only been looking at the flag in front of me, you study the entire range".

He now knows it's more his technique than the rifle, as I've shown him it works well.

With the dealer bringing in 10 Falcons there might be a bunch of second hand RF on the market by Xmas.

It pains for me to say it, but if my FWB gets outclassed by the Falcon I'll be acquiring, it'll be for sale as well. It's won state titles, placed well in various National titles, and won numerous Sydney area prize shoots

- bec

[Chriswillis696]

Brett33 ive had the action sleeved and threaded from that, i done it that way so if i wanted to go back to drop in barrel i could. I shoot at Lismore, mainly TRA with some RBA events as well. I hope to be up at the nationals, just depends if i can get the time off work. And no the only other person who has really shoot the rifle is native hunter as i shoot wed nites with him at Lismore. Im using a good rest (JJ) and a good rear bag.
Dont get me wrong the gun shoots great centres, but why does it have to throw a shot?
Im running out of cool with the rifle!!