Since I have 2 204s on order from Shane I thought I would get serious. to add to the Redding competition bullet seater and shoulder die i have just ordered a competition bushing neck die.
I also just picked up 200 new Norma cases.
Would you bump the shoulder on new brass or just ensure the necks were round with the neck sizer?
I recently started to uniform primer pockets. I deburr flash holes. I have a wilson uniform chamfer tool.
I have read some discussion on trimming. Opinions differ but the majority suggest to trim after first firing as this allows for any stretch. Others want them all the same length first. Opinions on this would be welcome. I have a wilson trimmer with the holder for both new and fired cases.
I also have a cheap digital scale bought off ebay that seems to work. For the first time I was going to weigh and batch these cases. My guess would be to prep them first as different depth pockets will be removing different amounts of brass. Also if you trim after first firing that has to change the weight.
So in what order do you batch your brass in the prep stage?
time to get annally retentive
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day Trevort,
the uniforming of the primer pocket depth and de-burring the flash hole is an excellent start. It's a bit like putting EFI into an engine with a distributor. Much more uniform ignition of the powder column is the result.
If the cases fit your chamber, then neck sizing will be enough because the first firing will straighten "bent cases" although the accuracy might not be as good. If you want to do load developement with the first firing then FLS to just bump the shoulder and seat the bullet long into the rifling. This makes sure on firing, the case head is hard up against the bolt face. and avoids stretching the case in a really bad way!
If you FLS initially, you can trim then if you want to because all the cases are a uniform length, otherwise if you neck size, trim after the first full power load. The cases will be different lengths after firing regardless of whether you trim first or not. If you trim first the differences in length will not be as great. After that first firing the cases will be a good fit to your chamber and a near perfect fit after the second firing. The stretching will have slowed because the case is now fired formed to your chamber for that rifle, not any other rifle in that calibre. So you need to keep both lots of brass separate or both rifles.
Trimming ensures the neck length and therefore the amount of force holding the case is nearly identical. Shorter necks must have less brass holding the bullet, longer ones more brass therefore more force. This has an effect on the ignition cycle. I like to keep an eye on them and trim when they get more than 5 thou difference in a batch. Neck turning is the next step in making each cartridge more uniform in neck tension that grips each bullet..........that is if you really want to be anally retentive like me!
I firmly believe weighing cases doesn't really help. I have shot in my 6ppc 20 heavy cases varying by no more than 1.5gns and 25 light cases that also vary by 1.5gns. The difference between the 2 batches was about 6 grains from memory. The results on paper were identical groups, identical point of impact..........no change. The key to the accuracy was the necks were turned all together and they all varied by no more than 1/10th of a thou (1/10000") so neck tension and neck wall thickness uniformity is crucial..........but I'm anally retentive, I still weigh for BR but not for F class or hunting.
Brass prep stages as follows
1. Uniform pockets and de-burr flash holes
2. Fireform while running in barrel
3. Trim to a uniform length.
4. Load developement
5. After say 3 firings check case length and trim if needed.
A lot of info hopefully not too much waffle! Hope this helps!
Cheerio Ned
the uniforming of the primer pocket depth and de-burring the flash hole is an excellent start. It's a bit like putting EFI into an engine with a distributor. Much more uniform ignition of the powder column is the result.
If the cases fit your chamber, then neck sizing will be enough because the first firing will straighten "bent cases" although the accuracy might not be as good. If you want to do load developement with the first firing then FLS to just bump the shoulder and seat the bullet long into the rifling. This makes sure on firing, the case head is hard up against the bolt face. and avoids stretching the case in a really bad way!
If you FLS initially, you can trim then if you want to because all the cases are a uniform length, otherwise if you neck size, trim after the first full power load. The cases will be different lengths after firing regardless of whether you trim first or not. If you trim first the differences in length will not be as great. After that first firing the cases will be a good fit to your chamber and a near perfect fit after the second firing. The stretching will have slowed because the case is now fired formed to your chamber for that rifle, not any other rifle in that calibre. So you need to keep both lots of brass separate or both rifles.
Trimming ensures the neck length and therefore the amount of force holding the case is nearly identical. Shorter necks must have less brass holding the bullet, longer ones more brass therefore more force. This has an effect on the ignition cycle. I like to keep an eye on them and trim when they get more than 5 thou difference in a batch. Neck turning is the next step in making each cartridge more uniform in neck tension that grips each bullet..........that is if you really want to be anally retentive like me!
I firmly believe weighing cases doesn't really help. I have shot in my 6ppc 20 heavy cases varying by no more than 1.5gns and 25 light cases that also vary by 1.5gns. The difference between the 2 batches was about 6 grains from memory. The results on paper were identical groups, identical point of impact..........no change. The key to the accuracy was the necks were turned all together and they all varied by no more than 1/10th of a thou (1/10000") so neck tension and neck wall thickness uniformity is crucial..........but I'm anally retentive, I still weigh for BR but not for F class or hunting.
Brass prep stages as follows
1. Uniform pockets and de-burr flash holes
2. Fireform while running in barrel
3. Trim to a uniform length.
4. Load developement
5. After say 3 firings check case length and trim if needed.
A lot of info hopefully not too much waffle! Hope this helps!
Cheerio Ned
Last edited by Ned Kelly on Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr G
- 300 Win Mag
- Posts: 1841
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:52 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 204 Ruger
- Location: Not in Roxby Downs, SA
no waffle there Ned, that was one of the better posts i have read on this forum.
personally i have no experience with reloading (other than an old lee loader for the 303, the sort you hit with a hammer) but i find myself leaning this way more and more as i read this forum. Especially as i go through 500 rnds 223 ammo every two or three months
Articles like this with clear explanations on why something is done are fantastic
Thanks
Dr G
personally i have no experience with reloading (other than an old lee loader for the 303, the sort you hit with a hammer) but i find myself leaning this way more and more as i read this forum. Especially as i go through 500 rnds 223 ammo every two or three months
Articles like this with clear explanations on why something is done are fantastic
Thanks
Dr G
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day Dr G,
it's hard to know how much reloading knowledge people have, so I try to keep it simple and aim it at begineers in laymans terms. Hopefully they get the idea, learn something and more importantly can make clear choices based on what they want to achieve with their gear.
To the more experienced reloaders please do not think I'm being patronising in any way. So far I dont think any of you do , cause no-ones had a go at me and certainly my experience is limited to a few popular varminting rounds and BR competition. I do try to tell it as I see it ad look forward to debating pro's & con's so more can learn from the discussions.
This forum and others like it are such a rich and valuable source of info for any varminter and target shooter. I just wish there had been a forum like this (and the internet) 25 yrs ago when I started out! Jeez, I'd have saved a small fortune and have a superbly accurate collection of rifles now!
Cheerio Ned
it's hard to know how much reloading knowledge people have, so I try to keep it simple and aim it at begineers in laymans terms. Hopefully they get the idea, learn something and more importantly can make clear choices based on what they want to achieve with their gear.
To the more experienced reloaders please do not think I'm being patronising in any way. So far I dont think any of you do , cause no-ones had a go at me and certainly my experience is limited to a few popular varminting rounds and BR competition. I do try to tell it as I see it ad look forward to debating pro's & con's so more can learn from the discussions.
This forum and others like it are such a rich and valuable source of info for any varminter and target shooter. I just wish there had been a forum like this (and the internet) 25 yrs ago when I started out! Jeez, I'd have saved a small fortune and have a superbly accurate collection of rifles now!
Cheerio Ned
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trevort
- Spud Gun
- Posts: 12710
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:21 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: Tater
- Location: Melbourne
Good stuff Ned. After the first 10 shots of running in I will start load development. I dont have a FLS as the redding comp set just has the shoulder die. If they chamber I will NS only.
I will trim after first firing. Then I might weight sort them as they should have the same dimensions then. Like you, I dont know what this will acheive but if some do it and I have the tools then why not!
I paid $152 per 100 cases as Norma are supposed to be the best available for the 204 and I dont want to neck turn, Shane will cut the neck to be neat but not requiring a neck turn. My rifles are essentially hunting rifles but I do not handload to save money (quite the reverse so far!) I do it as its a hobby in itself which I enjoy and my goal is to make the best ammo I am possibly capable of. 5 shots touching gives me just as much pleasure as a 200m rabbit!
When tailoring replies to me I suppose I would class myself in the intermediate range!
One of the rifles will have a no 9 Krieger barrel and I will put it in some sort of BR style stock (I will get shane to put swivel studs in that can easily be screwed out as it will go spotlighting with a bipod as well as sliding in the bag on the bench
) Its not due till XMAS. I will see how the Norma brass goes on the first one and decide whether to by neck turning equipment before the the neck is cut on the Krieger.
I will trim after first firing. Then I might weight sort them as they should have the same dimensions then. Like you, I dont know what this will acheive but if some do it and I have the tools then why not!
I paid $152 per 100 cases as Norma are supposed to be the best available for the 204 and I dont want to neck turn, Shane will cut the neck to be neat but not requiring a neck turn. My rifles are essentially hunting rifles but I do not handload to save money (quite the reverse so far!) I do it as its a hobby in itself which I enjoy and my goal is to make the best ammo I am possibly capable of. 5 shots touching gives me just as much pleasure as a 200m rabbit!
When tailoring replies to me I suppose I would class myself in the intermediate range!
One of the rifles will have a no 9 Krieger barrel and I will put it in some sort of BR style stock (I will get shane to put swivel studs in that can easily be screwed out as it will go spotlighting with a bipod as well as sliding in the bag on the bench
) Its not due till XMAS. I will see how the Norma brass goes on the first one and decide whether to by neck turning equipment before the the neck is cut on the Krieger.-
Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day trevort,
If you do not want to neck turn (ask any BR shooter what he hates the most and I reckon 7/10will say Neck turning!) using brass with the least amount of neck wall thickness variation is the next best thing. Lapua .223 brass has around 0.5thou variation or less out of a measured 50 cases. This is the way I would go for any hunting/varminting rifle. Simply because you are in the field without BR rests, wind flags etc. Quality brass is the best way to go.
If you do want to neck turn you need only turn enough to clean up around 80% of the total neck surface. Essentially a skim cut so you can continue to reload normally without BR dies. This should work well with bushing dies and custom chambers. I would not recommended this for factory cut chambers (been there done that!)
Again, I'd still recommend brass with little neck wall thickness variation and ignore turning your brass. If you want to measure your brass neck thickness yuo need to buy a tubing micrometer that measures in 1/10th of a thou (1/10,000 inch). Russ Haydon's shooting supplies in the USAsells a modified one that will measure right up close to the neck shoulder junction. this way you can cull those cases that have too much variation and I still would not worry about their weight, just the wall thickness
Hope this helps,
Cheerio Ned
If you do not want to neck turn (ask any BR shooter what he hates the most and I reckon 7/10will say Neck turning!) using brass with the least amount of neck wall thickness variation is the next best thing. Lapua .223 brass has around 0.5thou variation or less out of a measured 50 cases. This is the way I would go for any hunting/varminting rifle. Simply because you are in the field without BR rests, wind flags etc. Quality brass is the best way to go.
If you do want to neck turn you need only turn enough to clean up around 80% of the total neck surface. Essentially a skim cut so you can continue to reload normally without BR dies. This should work well with bushing dies and custom chambers. I would not recommended this for factory cut chambers (been there done that!)
Again, I'd still recommend brass with little neck wall thickness variation and ignore turning your brass. If you want to measure your brass neck thickness yuo need to buy a tubing micrometer that measures in 1/10th of a thou (1/10,000 inch). Russ Haydon's shooting supplies in the USAsells a modified one that will measure right up close to the neck shoulder junction. this way you can cull those cases that have too much variation and I still would not worry about their weight, just the wall thickness
Hope this helps,
Cheerio Ned
