Q 500m Fly Spotting Scopes & Cartridges

[Tony Z]

Well Peter, you want an independant trial or view of the top scopes, i will give it to you. I ran a 10x60 March all this year on my Diamondcrap. Previous to that and during i ran a 35x Leup, a 45x Luep, a 24 Weaver, a 12-42 NF and a LWBBR 25X Lyman.
The March is going up for sale as i hate that as soon as it gets a little recoil the backlash on the bevel gears allows the parallax to shift, a very annoying thing at LR where a narrow range is the difference between in and out of focus. The Nightforce is still the pick for me with its optics and parallax adjustment. For 1K i would have to say the optics of the March are a waste of money, for 500 meters on a clearer day and if you like to see bullet holes, there were times that through the soup of our range holes could be seen. But they could be seen with the NF as well.
For 1K the 24 or 25 scopes i have are perfect and quite good enough to get the white square resolute enough to take perfect aim even in boiling mirage.
The 45x Leup is a waste of money all round but they have fixed their problem in the newer scopes, like the one i have now, with the backlash in the bevel gears that effect the March. The earlier one i had had this annoying habit and it got sold as well. Might be fine on a PPC or 30 BR, but when these sort of scopes get placed on a 30 JAT with 200 SMKs and a whole bunch of recoil, they show up poorly.
For my money the best scope i own is the 35 Leup, this scope i believe was voted second after the March in the US recently on a poll of BR scopes. I think they should have done more testing on something bigger than a PPC where this result would be reversed. This scope has in my view the best optics value for money out there.

There you have it, used them all in the worst mirage ridden range on the planet and the only two i think are woth their money is the NF and the 35 Leup for 500 through to 600 yards, beyond that, all you need is something to hold zero and see that little white square.

[petevm]

Geoff,
Back to cartridges. If you can come along to our Fly practice day on Dec 19 then you are welcome to try a light gun in 6.5/284 with 140gn bullet (generally considered to be the upper end for comfort in a 17 lb rifle) and also a 7mm Rem Mag with 168gn (generally considered to be over the top). The BC's are close enough the same as is the muzzle velocity, so the ballistics are near enough equal. The price you pay for the bigger bullet hole is a shitload more recoil - your personal tolerance needs to be established. Neither will shoot as accurately as a 6mmBR (or it's derivatives) so I always prefer the little 6mm's if the conditions are readable - reserving the others for crappy days.

[Ackley Improved]

Young Roy beat us with a 6mmDasher in Melbourne right???

Cheers

[Rath]

Surely nothing beats a tasco and a .308 win for long range shooting....

[petevm]

Thanks for the opening Trevor. Yes indeed, Roy took the Light Gun win (as well as the outright win, with one of my rifles - damn it!) with a 6mm Dasher. Geoff Wells himself was second using 6X47 Lapua. Lee-Anne came in third with a 6mm Dasher. What does this tell us? Geoff needs a team-mate! Both Roy and Lee-Anne had the benefit of an experienced spotter. Frankly, if Geoff had this same benefit he may well have flogged everyone! So now we can go back to the original question re spotting scopes - buy a reasonably decent one (I have already suggested the Nikon as being good enough and good value for money) and put someone on it that has the nous to do their bit for you. If you can't get a 'team' thing happening then you will have to scrounge help at each shoot - but stop trying to do it on your own when things get a bit rough.

[Ackley Improved]

I agree 110% on a good spotter... My score of 194 using a hunting rifle, 25X scope, and off harris bipods can be attributed to having a great spotter.. but not only do you need a good spotter, but you both need to be seeing, reading similar conditions to know what the other person is shooting on.

I was lucky to have Jugsy as mine, and I was his. During both our shooting Jugsy told me to wait and not go and I did the same for him. One switchy flag can be all it takes, and 4 eyes are better than 2!!

I even spotted down your way pete for one or two details.... you know what you were reading, I just offered quick bullet hole locating....

I do think there is swing towards the smaller chamberings in LG, definitely down south anyway for the Fly.

For a spotter, I like the Zeiss 85mm diascope.

Cheers

[jimbo]

Well I am an absolute novice at Fly Shooting, as I have only ever shot two matches.
I do however know a bit about wind and mirage reading.
I also know a bit about what makes a good scope - for me, that is.

The mirage was fierce at Little River, and I used a 16 pound 6.5 x 284 rifle with a 36-55x March on board. The rifle was loaded HOT with 139 Lapuas and Reloader 17, and still generated a reasonable amount of recoil.

Funnily enough I did not notice any problems with the parallax system on mine. It wasn't easy to see the target though (even at 36x), and I had a 45x LCS Leupold as my spotter and that was no better. I spotted for a guy who had a 12-42x NF and I couldn't see any better through that one either.

I would not shit-can any one scope over another, and as I have March, Leupold, Sightron, B&L and Weaver in my collection of competition scopes, I reckon I have a fair representation of what is about.

BA

[petevm]

Thanks for your comments Brendan. Once again we are back to experience on the part of both the shooter and the spotter. When to declare a shot or simply admit to the shooter that you cannot see it?? The shooter is best advised to be told that the shot can't be found and not guessed at. The shooter has the option of continuing or shooting another 'sighter' and starting again. Re-iterating - an experienced spotter may be able to roughly indicate the fall of shot due to the disturbance in the mirage and advise the shooter accordingly. By the way, the mirage at the Fly Shoot at Little River range was actually quite mild compared to what we regular 'Fly' shooter's have to contend with both at our home range and others. As for optics, I think that has been covered almost to death. And cartridge selection seems to be a 'shoulder' issue.

[Tony Z]

There is obviously a clear distinction to what happens South and what happens here in the North. The bigger calibers are used by the locals, 284s, 7 JATs 308s, 30 JATs etc in LG and then for HG it is and has been virtually all 30 Cal magnums. Jeff H is about to go to the 30 cal for next year moving away from his 270 HG. The sub cals have been tried and passed over, but i have had success with two, that 6BR as i said earlier for an outright win, and some years later with a 25 cal for the LG win. But apart from that, most seem to drift to the bigger stuff, not because they have a bigger bullet hole, but because they agg better, for whatever reason. I think that whichever way you look at it, shooting blind is part of our evolution up here, therefore the transition to 1K some years after the advent of the Fly was a given and why we wonder what on earth would compel someone to shoot 1K in any other way than blind. This is why i can look at each and every scope i have ever owned and used and rate them as to their true worth in OUR environment while using the calibers that we have gravitated to. But that is us and then there is the rest of the country. I would love to shoot something nice and tame like a 6BR or 6.5 284 or even my 30 x47 and those splendid 135 SMKs at 3100 fps, but the reality for me is that i will not or cannot produce consistent aggregates with these guns at 500 meters. Look at my 550 group aggs over the year with the 6 BR, one month was a 6.3 inch agg then two months later it is 1.7 inches. Same gun and bullets etc and look at the contrast.
The other thing that is vastly different is that most of us up here do not use a spotter other than to get on paper. All my scores, winning loosing or otherwise have been from my own doing. Many of our visitors from the South have had spotters as that is what they do. We don't because the spotter cannot see shit most of the year round and calling a wind flag without knowing where or how the group is forming becomes guess work on two levels. Having said that, Stuart and Annie have ventured up this way a couple of times, winning outright the first time, then not so well the second. More recently Jugs and Shane have come up and did very well at the Fly working as a team, seeing what i have no idea, but did find the 1K a little "different". That part of our range frustrates everyone that visits. Spotters are generally used on our Fly matches by newcomers, occasional shooters and the various sniper teams from the local military bases or from the many visiting US Marines and SF units in town.

Clearly what we see and do up here is different and contrasting to what is done in the rest of the country. We haven't shot Fly for a year, but the 1K has stood alone as far as results go. So Trev if i can pass over the very caliber that has given me a score and group agg not bettered so far, and where one would assume it would excel at the shorter ranges like 500 meters, what could possibly make me think that it is an also ran? Because that is what i think, the 6 BR is an also ran, an occasional do gooder, not a stayer. My statistics this year tell me so.

[petevm]

Tony,
Thanks for your input, but most especially for your honesty in continually adding the rider - 'in our environment'. This is important as the experiences of shooters cannot be compared without some 'qualification' as regards the conditions they typically shoot on. Getting back to the thread - Geoff will no doubt be taking all this on board but needs to localise his criteria.

[a.JR]

Hi All , Question ,what & how do you use the equipment & process's to get results at FLY?.. While the Novices have just as much right to input into this conflab as i have they probably won't help you get to the pointy end of the field any time soon , flash scopes or not .. Yes there are differences in the way the match evolved at each range ,primary reason is local knowledge and the conditions offered but i for one will not be convinced that a helpfull spotter is going to get you great scores at FLY.. Now it's been a while since FLY has been shot up here thanks to some helpfull barstards in the south ,2008 was part time 09 and 10 no show at all .. The last 2 full years of competition were my best ,4 matchs in 2007--i shot 241.1 / 223.3 / 238.4 and 253.6----- then in 2006 i won AUS FLY SOTY (684.5) including the NSW state Champs, the Brisbane Champs and the QLD state Titles,score total for that year was 236.1/ 212.2 / 241.1 / 229.0 / 239.2 / 200.0 / 245.6.. Thats 11 matchs at 3 different ranges in 2 years with an average of 232. ..I honestly can not see a way to do that with someone calling your shots beside you in the spotters chair , i'm sorry it's just an imposition to getting great results, but just like the novice i have the right to input as well .. IMO the day you forget the *gotta see the bullet holes* bull dust is the day the scores will start to rise .. JR..Jeff Rogers

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day all,
well I think I'll stick with the LG 6x47lapua and the NF 12-42 DD. I like the challenge of driving a LG properly and seeing a pretty good result at the end of the day. And I'll probably end up buying a better spotting scope just in case I need a spotter but probably will end up clamping it to the bench so I can spot for myself if possible & practical, it must also be able to be used to take photo's, since there is plenty of wildlife around home that offers almost daily photo opportunities.

I'm a bit bone headed, some say stubborn, but like Tony Z, there is a certain satisfaction of saying I did it myself, I feel it is a true measure of YOUR OWN shooting abilities. Basically my goal is to hit the fly at least once and get a score above 200, if I can, I've had a great day! However, I'm not convince about the need for a spotter............yet!

I think it really comes down to developing a well tuned rifle & load combo and aggressive shooting style and knowing when to start and when to stop!

In F class (Open) I've tried to shoot fast as the target crew allow (poor beggers dont know what hits them!) and it seems to work well as I stay on top of the wind changes, and I rely heavily on the mirage pattern too. I think it has some merit in 500m Fly. I suspect when you cannot see bullet holes the following should work reasonably well: 1 x sighter, 2 x record, 1 x sighter, 2 x record and if the conditon is good finish with final record. If not you still have a sighter to use for the final record shot.

Alternatively, AI has opened my eyes to the 6.5x47lapua's brilliant performance and who knows, maybe a 7x47lapua or now that we have 308 palma brass from lapua, necked down to 7-08palma might be pretty good with 162 Amax's..........

Thank you all for the input and fell free to hammer my ideas above!

However, please, please, please leave your egos in another room and just pass on your real world experiences!

Cheerio Geoff Wells aka "Ned Kelly"

[James A Kelbly]

Hello Australia from cold and snowy Ohio in the USA. Very nice web forum.

I was informed that Tony Z has had two problems with March 10X-60x scopes. Well we here at Kelbly's are the Worldwide (except Asia) distributor of March scopes and we need to keep up on any potential problems. First if Tony Z could tell me the serial numbers of the scopes he has or had, this would help us find a potential problem. We have had no problems with the 10x-60x scopes that Tony Z describes, no one has sent a March back for back lash problems on any of the March scopes.

TonyZ stated " I think they should have done more testing on something bigger than a PPC where this result would be reversed." Well Tony Z the 10x-60x were tested backwards on 50BMG's and then put back on BR rail guns and no problems with POA shift or backlash. Do you really think we would only try them on 6PPC only. The 6PPC market is so small that we could not just build the scope for the short range BR game.10x-60x scopes are on many rifles with larger caliber than 6PPC.

Is there any reason you did not return the scope to Japan to see if Deon could fix the so called problem you were having with the 10x-60x March? Did you inform the purchaser of the problem you felt the scope had. Deon has great service and since you seem to be the only one out of 500 plus 10x-60x scopes in shooters hands now to have this problem, we sure would like to see these two scopes.

So please let us know the serial numbers fof the two scopes you have or had so we can keep track of them if they ever are returned to Japan for repair.


Normally I would PM you on a matter like this but since you brought this issue up on the forum I felt the forum should see the type of service we demand from Kelbly's and Deon. We want you the shooters to have the very best optics bar none.

James A. Kelbly

[Mick]

[m12vlp]

It's like watching top gear.

People arguing about the best super car (scope) while the rest of us drive 10yo bombs