Bushing dies any other advantages

[scott oz]

I’ve been considering purchasing some bushing dies but

I don’t use specialist cases. I usually source cases from factory munitions I’ve needed to purchase or alternatively (shame ) “once fired” bins etc.

I then do; the flash hole de-burring, exterior cleaning, length sizing and neck turning. I generally try and keep “packet factory” stuff together or at worst I’ll sort by maker.

Just examining cases from the same manufacture, there can be huge differences between the neck wall thicknesses? This is even after outside neck turning. I have an outside turner attachment for each calibre.

I suppose the obvious answer is to outside neck turn to the “thinnest” case? Then buy the bushing to suite?

Apart from customising the neck size via bushing selection, is there any other advantage to using Redding competition bushing dies

[trevort]

If you buy the titanium nitride bushings you dont need case lube.

I'm not the most experienced shooter on here and I am guessing you know this already the way you write your post but anything I have read tells you accuracy starts with consistency in your brass and the buffs will spend the $$$ on Lapua etc. You might be starting behind the eight ball accuracy wise(small groups) sourcing cheap brass

[scott oz]

Travport,

Mate same boat as you.

I suppose I know that I've got to improve the brass but was just avoiding it

My latest bright idea is to buy some of the good stuff a for the 223 VSSF for range work and consign the rest to the hunting catagory. Which brings me back to my original delmina is it worth spending $US180 on the Redding bushing dies

[Max Rockatansky]

Hello scott oz,
Bushing dies when used in conjunction with body dies don't overwork the brass = longer case life. Your initial investment will pay you back in the long run by allowing you to achieve more reloads from you brass.

Based on the info in your post(s) I'd recommend Lee Collet dies, specifically the Lee Deluxe die set. Lee Collet dies size the neck by squeezing the neck onto a mandril. You achieve consistent neck tension regardless of outside diameter of your necks, no neck turning required. You'll need to ensure the inside of the case neck is clean and there's no burr on the mouth and that's about it for case prep.

Lee claims that when using their Collet dies you'll load the most accurate ammunition or your money back.

Go to here for more info on Lee Collet dies and here for info on the Lee accuracy guarantee.

[Kenny]

Scottoz

I guess the main advantage is the ability to vary the neck tension by changing the size of the bush.

I only own 1 Redding bush die and it seems to work ok, however I only use it as a body die with the stem and bush removed to FLS or bump the shoulder on my PPC cases.

Due to my old Simplex press having an alignment problem I use Wilson dies for the neck sizing operation, they work the same with a bush but leave the neck with zero runout they are a bit cheaper than the Redding sets as well if you get them from the US.

They don't have a thread like a normal die so there are a few ways of using them, you can buy an arbour press......use a soft faced hammer to size and seat by hand pressure only or.... as I have found place the base that comes with the seater die over the ram of your press and use the top of the press frame(without a die in it) to push the die against when sizing and seating......bet thats confused you

I use no lube on the cases at all when neck sizing, I simply clean the necks of carbon with a bit of polish wadding like 'brite-n-shine' and wipe the residue off before sizing.

I have a collet die as Max mentioned also, but have had no success with it Not knocking them Max....it's just that mine seems to leave a little bump at the parts of the neck where the collet has splits in it

KY

[Max Rockatansky]

I have a collet die as Max mentioned also, but have had no success with it Not knocking them Max....it's just that mine seems to leave a little bump at the parts of the neck where the collet has splits in it

Hehe, Knock away Kenny, knock away. Points of view or opinions are what make discussions. Being able to have a discussion where the focus is on the issue and not the individual are what makes for good discussions. Let's face it, discussions where everyone agrees makes for short discussions. I've learnt more in my time from "disagreements" then I have from “agreements”. So in short, express your opinions freely, just be prepared for lively discussion

Try sizing twice and rotating the case after the first sizing. Lee recommends this method. Are you camming the press over? Which would be putting way too much pressure on the collet ?

The Lee Collet dies straight from the factory are as rough as guts, but you get what you pay for. A little time and effort to "clean" them up and they're good for what they do. Last set I got in cost me AU$50, not bad for a 3 die set . I like Lee's dead length seater. I only wish they'd put a body die in their deluxe kit.

If you are going to load a heap of ammunition in various brands of brass for standard chambers to shoot in the field, you be hard pressed to go past Collet dies

[Ackley Improved]

Bushing dies....

1. Change neck tension to suit. Aid accuracy.

2. After neck turning cases, you need a bushing die to allow the right amount of neck tension. (neck turning uniforms case neck thickness)

3. Using the nitride(??? cant remember name) bushing no lube needed.

Cheers
AI

[scott oz]

Max "R"

MMMM yes I can see how the use of the mandrel would work to give consistant sizing=tension.

I just purchased 223,308 & 375 Lee factory crimping dies after using a mates, I much prefered the Lee system over the compresion crimp.

Why do Lee dies generally have such a poor reputation. Most of the comments you see on the forums seem to rate them poorly

[Con]

scott oz,
Lee dies are cheaply priced so most people automatically think they're cheaply designed. Like all reloading dies, they have their positives and negatives. For a hunting rifle I have no qualms about them ... a 223Rem Ruger VT I owned shot 0.5MOA using ammunition loaded with $25 Lee RGB dies. I now have more Lee, than any other brand dies.
Cheers...
Con

[trevort]

If you get the sinclair catalogue which is supposedly for precision shooters by precision shooters you wont find any Lee dies for sale, redding bushing dies are what the benchrest guys use. I have only got the one set because I ordered a custom rifle and wanted the best dies. I have a set of Lee dies for my 223 as I thought it would probably end up rebarelled to something else and wanted to save money. Then I read the serious varmint shooters on the 204 board going on about TIR and why you needed either a redding or forster micrometer competition seater and ended up buying one of those for my 204 and 223.

Unfortunately I cant give you a report on my Lee collet dies because the 10th case was not aligned perfectly in the shell holder. The stem slid down the outide of the case and bent. I've been trying to get a new one for weeks! I have read about the tension on the neck variance problem on other boards but not in a position to comment.

someone on AHN has the byline on their posts, going something like "buy the best, hurt once"

[Kenny]

Max,

Try sizing twice and rotating the case after the first sizing. Lee recommends this method. Are you camming the press over? Which would be putting way too much pressure on the collet ?

Yep, done the rotating thing, and nope it's adjusted correctly if you have access to a case neck runout gauge you will see what I mean, Good suggestion about cleaning the die up, I never thought of that shall have go at it.
Must agree that for the money the Lee set is value But I still prefer a Wilson die over anything

Trevort,
I think the neck variance prob is related to brass quality...or lack of.
From what I have experienced, nothing can play more havoc with accuracy than variance in neck tension.
I reckon your last comment is spot on....buy the best you can and buy it once

KY

[jb747]

I've ended up with quite a selection of bushings for my various dies. Unless you're better organised or luckier than me, you'll probably find that you will need a couple of bushings for each cartridge.

Bushing dies make it very easy to partially neck size. Basically, only working the bit of the brass that holds the bullet. The remainder of the neck is left as it was when last fired, and serves to positively centre the round in the chamber.

You can also use them to make up dies for wildcats. I use a 22/250 bushing die, with a .26 (or so) bushing as my 6/250 neck die. So that means one die will work for two (or more) cartridges. I expect that I'll be able to use the 243 die for the 260.

Negatives are that you really need to make sure that all of your brass has the same neck thickness. Whereas a collet die when given brass with varying neck thickness will give a result that has exactly that same sized hole, but varying outside diameter, the bushing dies will do the opposite, and you'll have identical outside, but varying inside. And this means uneven neck tension.

[scott oz]

JB747,

Thanks for the reply and for that matter all the contributors. JB747 what you say was exactly the conclusion I was coming to.

From what I've read the neck tension is a significant issue (one of) for accuracy. So from what I now understand in "my case" I'd be better looking to get the internal neck size right by using a mandrel (lee die). Particularly as I've got in the order of 600 (223) cases. All differing brands and neck wall thicknesses.

I’m not too worried about working the brass as I’m going to change my strategy and buy some of the good stuff just for the range and the 223 VSSF. The rest will be consigned to the A bolt lite walkabout.

The only thing that I suppose I'm still juggling is the centering of the projectile. I note the comments on the bushing die almost "insuring" the neck throat is centred for accepting the projectile.

With the lee die's using the mandrel would you get the same or as good a “centering” of the neck throat as with the bushing die

[ogre6br]

you could used the collet die to get all the bores of the mouths at all the same diameter and then turn all the high spots or to a set diameter for all your brass and then use a bushing die to maintain the brass necks in their best condition with minimal work hardenening.

just an idea

later
P

[scott oz]

ogre6br,

Yep that had crossed my mind. Some of the wall thickness on particularly the "once fired" brass is, as they say "paper thin" when you compare it to some of the factory loaded cases.

I've got a Lyman electric case trimmer and an outside neck trimming tool for my two major rounds 223 & 308. I've trimmed all the lengths back to a common length.

And this is where the problem started on AHN. When I started to do the trimming I noted a "wobble" which clearly means that something is "out".

I've run a dial gauge over the pilot and changed it so the one in it now is within acceptable limits .005. So if the case is coming out of the die with the neck concentric and in line to the centre of the case there's little more I can do.

If the problem is the trimmer then short of changing it there is little else I can do. It will make no difference if I use bushing dies, collet dies or the best brass in the world if the pilot/trimmer is at fault. Given these electric laths are $300 a good hobbie one secnd had is arround $600.

I don't suppose there a high tech piece of equipment just made to do a couple of similar jobs on basicly the same piece of metal (brass case)

Any of you blokes use electric trimmers? And what’s your experience and which ones