I need some help to what is going on with my loads. I’m new to reloading and on the weekend I tested my first loads for my Savage VLP .223 1 in 7” twist. Loads were 25, 25.3 and 25.5 grains of BM2 with 55g Serra BlitzKing, Federal 205 primers and once fired Highland brass. As I did not have a necking die I FLS the brass. I took my time reloading and weighed all loads twice and seated the bullets to the same depth as factory loads.
I set up a four targets (2xA4 sheets) on a cement fibre sheet measuring 26 inches high and 33 inches wide at 100 yards. There was a sight wind from left to right and temperature was about 25 degrees. All groups were 5 shots. I took a bit of time firing each group and the barrel only got slightly warm while shooting these groups.
This is where things got weird. The 25g loads measured .89” however there was only four holes with no sign of the fifth shot. With 25.3 loads only one bullet hit the target about the POA another one hit the fibre sheet about 25 inches away at a 45 degree angle to the right. It looked like it hit side on. No sign of the other 3 shots. With the 25.5g only one shot (the third one) hit the POA the other 4 shots missed the target and sheet altogether ??. By this stage I was well and truly stumped so I tried some Highland Factory rounds 55g Serra BlitzKing 5 shots , 4 shots where about .6” group while one shot went 18 inches to the left of the target the hole looked like the bullet entered at a bit of an angle.
I have used Highland Factory (55g Serra BlitzKing) sighted in about 1” high at 100 yards when spotlighting in the past with some success. I have also used Federal 55g VMax’s. However, I note on occasions there was a few misses on fairly easy shots around 100 to 120 yards. The way these have been flying all over the place may explain some of my misses.
My question is what the hell am I doing wrong? With a 1 in 7” twist are the 55g to light? If so what bullet type and weight should I be using?
223 load problems Help!!!!!!!!!!!!
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trevort
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I'm not certain on the twist rate for the right projie weight in 223 but usually if your twist is too fast it will still stabilise, it doesnt work the other way round. However, if its a lightly constructed varmint pill and its twisted too fast it can fly apart. Now thats starting to sound like a bit of your problem. Especially since more shots disappeared off target as your powder charge went up. Sometimes you can see a puff of dust if a projie explodes. Try one looking up at the end of the barrel and expected trajectory and not thru the scope incase you see a dust cloud.
Again, wait till a smarter person who knows the right twist rates for different projie weights comes along
Again, wait till a smarter person who knows the right twist rates for different projie weights comes along
Last edited by trevort on Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
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G'Day All,
I'd say with 90% certainty, your 223 with a 1:7" twist is spinning your bullets too hard and they are blowing up before the target due too the centifugal force which is causing the copper jacket to fail and spin apart. For a 50-55gn pill I'd normally expect a twist of 1:14" to 1:12". My .223 has a 1:8 and shoots 80gn sierras no worries. You could try the 75gn A-max from hornady, a great bullet for long range in the .223
Try heavier bullets (at least 60-70+gn), different design/brand of bullet, same weight bullets that are tougher built or back the load off.
A mate of mine had a 25-284 ans certain brands of bullets would explode into a grey cloud because they were too frangible at the speeds he was driving them in the barrel he had. Some lightly constructed varminting bullets simply cannot handle fast twist rate barrels
Also, out of a clean bore you may get 4 reaching the target but fouling build up will roughen the next bullet making it more susceptible to centifugal force destruction. Even if the bullet did not explode , it may be damaged enough that it will yaw off line and miss.
hope this helps, let us all know if this solves the problem
Cheerio Ned
I'd say with 90% certainty, your 223 with a 1:7" twist is spinning your bullets too hard and they are blowing up before the target due too the centifugal force which is causing the copper jacket to fail and spin apart. For a 50-55gn pill I'd normally expect a twist of 1:14" to 1:12". My .223 has a 1:8 and shoots 80gn sierras no worries. You could try the 75gn A-max from hornady, a great bullet for long range in the .223
Try heavier bullets (at least 60-70+gn), different design/brand of bullet, same weight bullets that are tougher built or back the load off.
A mate of mine had a 25-284 ans certain brands of bullets would explode into a grey cloud because they were too frangible at the speeds he was driving them in the barrel he had. Some lightly constructed varminting bullets simply cannot handle fast twist rate barrels
Also, out of a clean bore you may get 4 reaching the target but fouling build up will roughen the next bullet making it more susceptible to centifugal force destruction. Even if the bullet did not explode , it may be damaged enough that it will yaw off line and miss.
hope this helps, let us all know if this solves the problem
Cheerio Ned
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Brad Y
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No expert but heres what Ive found or learnt from others
Shoot 3 shot groups as most of the time i get four good ones then get excited and shoot a flier. This also saves on powder and projectiles if the loads dont work well.
Start at minimum loads for that powder and projectile weight combo, then work up in 0.2gr increments looking for pressure signs likeflattened primers and split necks. A ladder test if you like to check pressures etc. Starting at 25gr isnt a smart idea as you are one grain above minimum and only 0.6gr from a maximum load. I think ADI insists and so does most powder makers that you start at minimum loads. If for some reason 25gr caused too much pressure, you could have done some serious damage. For the sake of a few rounds, why not start at the minimum and work up.
Load a few different types of bullets. I have had trouble with my 55gr blitzkings in my 22-250- i think it doesnt like them but am trying again with them and vmax and the 55gr speer TNT hollow point.
What has happened to you is what happened to me. Basically I have been instructed that I need to back off on loads to get the harmonics of the barrel right and therefore an accurate load. Too much oomph and things go skew whiff. Im going back to minimum loads, and ladder testing different charges in differnt projectiles, as I know I can get to max loads with no pressure signs (worked up carefully) The key to shooting well with handloads is to get an accurate load and know where its shooting, not to push the bullet as hard and fast as it can go. Its pretty rare that handloads get to or exceed factory velocities or energies, but we can generally get more accurate. Thats the trade off. You can get a huge cannon and shoot something up the arse and it will survive it, or you can get a suitable calibre and place a shot well and drop it like a bag of spuds.
Also look at seating the bullet just off the lands for a bit more accuracy, sometimes a jump to the lands works against you.
As far as whats happening, check the scope mounts for loose screws etc, make sure your barrel isnt fouling- if its new, it may be a cause of loss of accuracy. Ive also had mine looked at, and found a small notch on the top land at the crown, this has to be removed to get accuracy consistent as it will catch any fouling and send a bullet off course. Im not sure on your twist rate and bullet weight ratings but im sure you could also look at heavier bullets as they may work better- maybe up to 60gr might make a difference but I think you could go up to 75gr bullets. If some arent hitting front on, then going up could well be the answer. Flat base bullets apparently give you slightly better accuracy closer up and boat tail bullets dont really work for you until you pass the 300m mark or so..... Apparently.
Is it a target or hunting load your looking to develop and what sort of things would you hunt with it? To me your 25gr load is close so maybe back it off a tad and seat the bullet out a bit more (do this in increments in different loads as you will want to watch for pressure here too) Should you get some grouping then the fliers that dont hit in a round hole, go up to a 60gr bullet and that may solve your problems in a fast twist.
Keep us posted.
Shoot 3 shot groups as most of the time i get four good ones then get excited and shoot a flier. This also saves on powder and projectiles if the loads dont work well.
Start at minimum loads for that powder and projectile weight combo, then work up in 0.2gr increments looking for pressure signs likeflattened primers and split necks. A ladder test if you like to check pressures etc. Starting at 25gr isnt a smart idea as you are one grain above minimum and only 0.6gr from a maximum load. I think ADI insists and so does most powder makers that you start at minimum loads. If for some reason 25gr caused too much pressure, you could have done some serious damage. For the sake of a few rounds, why not start at the minimum and work up.
Load a few different types of bullets. I have had trouble with my 55gr blitzkings in my 22-250- i think it doesnt like them but am trying again with them and vmax and the 55gr speer TNT hollow point.
What has happened to you is what happened to me. Basically I have been instructed that I need to back off on loads to get the harmonics of the barrel right and therefore an accurate load. Too much oomph and things go skew whiff. Im going back to minimum loads, and ladder testing different charges in differnt projectiles, as I know I can get to max loads with no pressure signs (worked up carefully) The key to shooting well with handloads is to get an accurate load and know where its shooting, not to push the bullet as hard and fast as it can go. Its pretty rare that handloads get to or exceed factory velocities or energies, but we can generally get more accurate. Thats the trade off. You can get a huge cannon and shoot something up the arse and it will survive it, or you can get a suitable calibre and place a shot well and drop it like a bag of spuds.
Also look at seating the bullet just off the lands for a bit more accuracy, sometimes a jump to the lands works against you.
As far as whats happening, check the scope mounts for loose screws etc, make sure your barrel isnt fouling- if its new, it may be a cause of loss of accuracy. Ive also had mine looked at, and found a small notch on the top land at the crown, this has to be removed to get accuracy consistent as it will catch any fouling and send a bullet off course. Im not sure on your twist rate and bullet weight ratings but im sure you could also look at heavier bullets as they may work better- maybe up to 60gr might make a difference but I think you could go up to 75gr bullets. If some arent hitting front on, then going up could well be the answer. Flat base bullets apparently give you slightly better accuracy closer up and boat tail bullets dont really work for you until you pass the 300m mark or so..... Apparently.
Is it a target or hunting load your looking to develop and what sort of things would you hunt with it? To me your 25gr load is close so maybe back it off a tad and seat the bullet out a bit more (do this in increments in different loads as you will want to watch for pressure here too) Should you get some grouping then the fliers that dont hit in a round hole, go up to a 60gr bullet and that may solve your problems in a fast twist.
Keep us posted.
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HiWall
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1:7 twist barrel in a .223 is definately a specialist barrel built for loooong bullets. It will almost certainly have a long throat to allow seating bullets way out to maximise case capacity. I reckon by seating short bullets to factory spec the poor old bullet will be jumping a fair distance before it meets the rifling.
This is going to allow all sorts of funny stuff to happen in the chamber, especially with f/l sized brass. If the cartridge is lying on the chamber floor the bullet will not be in line with the centre of the bore when fired, it will not engage the lands evenly and really have little chance of exiting the bore as it should.
I don't have much in the way of photos to demonstrate, but here is a pic of some rounds which I use in my .22/250 Ackley with 80 gr Sierra MatchKings. You can see how these bullets are way over standard length for .22/250. If your rifle is chambered to shoot these bullets and the even longer ones now available (I believe you can get bullets in .22 calibre up around 90 gr now) the chamber is going to be very long throated and i doubt you would even get close to the lands with a 55gr bullet.
I am pushing these 80gr bullets at over 3,300fps so they are spinning pretty quickly through the 1:8 - I doubt whether a .223 would have enough velocity to make one fly apart so grab some long bullets and give them a go. Sierra recomend 1:7 & 1:8 twist for these and if you wop a bunny or fox it is finished.
You are going to have to do some experimentation with your rifle, test your seating depths, fireform some brass and neck size - in short, embark in a full load work up, before you can expect to get good results. The 1:7 barrel twist is extreme - a true specialist barrel and getting it to shoot as a general varmint rifle with normal varmint bullets may well be a challenge.
My Ackley has a 1:8 twist and I don't even bother trying to shoot anything shorter than the 69gr match bullets through it.
My Winchester .22/250 Ackley varminter runs a 1:14 twist barrel, while the XR100 .223 is 1:12
Hope this helps mate, not very positive if you want to shoot light bullets, but I think your problems will be solved simply by selecting a bullet that will work in the 1:7 twist barrel.
This is going to allow all sorts of funny stuff to happen in the chamber, especially with f/l sized brass. If the cartridge is lying on the chamber floor the bullet will not be in line with the centre of the bore when fired, it will not engage the lands evenly and really have little chance of exiting the bore as it should.
I don't have much in the way of photos to demonstrate, but here is a pic of some rounds which I use in my .22/250 Ackley with 80 gr Sierra MatchKings. You can see how these bullets are way over standard length for .22/250. If your rifle is chambered to shoot these bullets and the even longer ones now available (I believe you can get bullets in .22 calibre up around 90 gr now) the chamber is going to be very long throated and i doubt you would even get close to the lands with a 55gr bullet.
I am pushing these 80gr bullets at over 3,300fps so they are spinning pretty quickly through the 1:8 - I doubt whether a .223 would have enough velocity to make one fly apart so grab some long bullets and give them a go. Sierra recomend 1:7 & 1:8 twist for these and if you wop a bunny or fox it is finished.
You are going to have to do some experimentation with your rifle, test your seating depths, fireform some brass and neck size - in short, embark in a full load work up, before you can expect to get good results. The 1:7 barrel twist is extreme - a true specialist barrel and getting it to shoot as a general varmint rifle with normal varmint bullets may well be a challenge.
My Ackley has a 1:8 twist and I don't even bother trying to shoot anything shorter than the 69gr match bullets through it.
My Winchester .22/250 Ackley varminter runs a 1:14 twist barrel, while the XR100 .223 is 1:12
Hope this helps mate, not very positive if you want to shoot light bullets, but I think your problems will be solved simply by selecting a bullet that will work in the 1:7 twist barrel.
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Flash Gordon
- .22 WMR
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If it is the twist, heavier bullets should help. I have target rifles with 1-8 twist, but have shot nothing lighter than 69gr Sierrs`s. 80gr sierra`s are what I use for F/class standard. Before I did anything drastic, I would get the barrel, and particularly the crown, checked out. If it is OK, either change bullets, or reduce velocity.
BlitzKings made by Sierra are made with very thin jackets that will not contain the near plastic lead core at the rpm you are spinning them at. Replace them with the old 55 spitzer and you will find things will be fine. The 7 twist rate is fast for the light 224 projectiles but good accuracy shouldn't be a problem with a bullet that has a strong enough jacket. Your problem has nothing to do with bullet weight, but rather jacket strength. The VMax and other varmint style bullets all have rather thin jackets, so it may be a trial and error situation. I just had 2 85 grain six mils fired at over 3400 fps in an 8.5 twist fail to even make paper at 100 yards this weekend gone. The threshold i adhere to is 260,000 rpm for any bullet and the load above is at 300,000 rpm, so you're not alone with shots going awol.
Tony Z.
Tony Z.
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Tempo
- .17 HMR
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Guys thanks for your help, the answer is in your posts. First I checked the crown and it appears ok. I then check all the action screws etc all ok. I have also checked the scope which performed well with some Winchester 69 g factory loads. I believe from what has been posted the problem is the 1in7" twist is spinning the bullets so fast and they are breaking apart in flight. I also spoke to a gunsmith today and he said he was almost certain that this was the case and recommended I use a heavier bullets. However, he also said it may be borderline and if I wanted to persist with the 55g I should try a slower burning power something like AR2207 or BM1. I note on the ADI power burning rates both of these powers are shown as faster burning than BM2. Leaves me a bit confused!
Trevort you asked why I bought a 1in7" twist. Well it was not planed that way. I thought I was getting a 1in9" twist but instead a 1in7" twist arrived. Since I was unaware of the performance and requirements of different twist rates I did not worry about it. Anyway on a positive note with the 1in7" twist rate I can load heavy bullets, maybe be I should have a crack at the 300 FLY, if nothing else it sounds like good fun and should help to improve my shooting skills. Now I just need to find a bullet that suits the twist rate and is good on Hares, Rabbits and Foxes. Thanks again for your help. Tempo
Trevort you asked why I bought a 1in7" twist. Well it was not planed that way. I thought I was getting a 1in9" twist but instead a 1in7" twist arrived. Since I was unaware of the performance and requirements of different twist rates I did not worry about it. Anyway on a positive note with the 1in7" twist rate I can load heavy bullets, maybe be I should have a crack at the 300 FLY, if nothing else it sounds like good fun and should help to improve my shooting skills. Now I just need to find a bullet that suits the twist rate and is good on Hares, Rabbits and Foxes. Thanks again for your help. Tempo
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
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G'Day tempo,
yup 07 and BM1 are faster powders, you could try 2208........
however, your rifle seems to be well set up for shooting F class competitions if you like to try some time, so not all is lost!
Good luck, Tony Z is right, find some tougher built 50-60gn pills and let everyone know how you get on. You might find the tougher bullets will act like varminters with that kind of twist rate!
Cheerio Ned
yup 07 and BM1 are faster powders, you could try 2208........
however, your rifle seems to be well set up for shooting F class competitions if you like to try some time, so not all is lost!
Good luck, Tony Z is right, find some tougher built 50-60gn pills and let everyone know how you get on. You might find the tougher bullets will act like varminters with that kind of twist rate!
Cheerio Ned
