Neck tension for the 204 opinions enjoyed?

[1kshot]

As the 204 seems such a popular cal around hear has any anyone had the chance at changing neck tension and seeing any effects on accuracy?
I don’t have a custom rifle just a rem 700vssf II, but it does shoot nice ½ in groups with 39grn BK’s with no problems and I was wondering if playing with neck tension would play any significant difference on this cal. I do have the option of giving the necks a slight turn to release tension (but the nosler brass is pretty good) or changing die bushing or both it’s not a tight neck chamber so I cannot remove to much neck brass

I’m currently using a redding s type bushing neck die and forster ultra seater
With nosler custom brass, 39gr BK’s or 40 grn vmax and BM2 powder

It is my l/r varmint gun (if I bon’t use my 338) so am barking up the wrong tree and need something else to do in the gun room?? Or is it worth the look??

Regards John

[trevort]

I think you know what your doing by the sound of it, quality reloading kit.

I have bought 224 225 226 227 and 228 bushings but havent got the gun yet so havent played.

i havent even talked to Shane about the neck diameter yet but will probably get a neck turn only chamber cut so some of those bushings will be unnecessary. Once i get it and work out what it likes I am happy to lend you a bushing or 2 if you still want to experiment and see if you can improve your groups.
Its still a couple of months away.

Do you unfirm your primer pockets?

[native hunter]

G"Day
Just a thought , have you tried 2206H powder as it sure does the trick for me.
Also BR primers were an improvement, only if shooting at paper other wise the bunnies did not notice it.!!
Regards
Damien Webb.

[trevort]

yep, 2206h and rem 7 1/2 br primers get my vote

[1kshot]

Thanks Trevort and Native Hunter

Wow trevort that’s some selection of bushings do you shoot other 20 cals? I may take you up on that offer, I’ll see if I don’t get to toey by the time a couple of months are up!

I uniform the flash hole with a drill bit in a drill press with a home made wooden case holder, uniform the pocket on my rcbs case prep centre with a primer pocket uniformer in the middle left station, then deburr the flash hole by hand with a lyman flash hole uniformer in that order.
I found it easier to uniform the pockets with the prep centre but like the feel of doing the flash holes by hand.
I’ll give the 71/2 a go I currently use federal premiums.
I gave 2206h a go but seemed to like the bm2 better but in all fairness I did give the bm2 more of a run, at the time my 2206h was getting sucked up with my 223, and 30/30, and I went of the 22-250 which I used the bm2 in so freeing up supply, I might look at it again?
More food for thought!
Trevort if I get to the tension thing first I’ll let you know how it went

Sincere Thanks
John

[trevort]

1KS, sounds like you dont need advice form a relative newbie like me, though I try hard!

I have been reading Benchrest shooting Primer, very good book. The large majority of the benchresters in the book liked just enough tension to hold the case in the mouth for best accuracy though probably not practical if you have a hunting rifle and extract a live round and leave a projie stuck in the lands!

Yeah, went a bit overboard on the 20 cal bushings! Ordered the three I thought I would need, then research lead me to believe i had gone too big (pretty sure 228 will be useless) so got another couple on my next order.

there werent too many people to ask about bushing sizes

[1kshot]

Trevort
OHH very messy with powder all through the action your right I need a balance!
Most of my experience (if you call it that) is just trial and error and giving stuff a go.
I like as much advice as I can get. I’ve only recently moved here from the bush (well a couple of years now) I don’t shoot bench or any other comps here at all and don’t get to talk to the guys a lot at the club, weekends are taken with the wife and kids so mostly I will take a couple of hrs off in the week and go down for a shoot at the club, and the more senior guys (that are always there) seem that far up themselves because they write in certain not to be mentioned magazines etc. you couldn’t even ask them about bushing etc. with out them looking at you like an idiot (oh well I got nothing to prove to them ) the funny thing is they then complain that we aren’t getting new shooters in, prob just a different breed of people here!! mind you there are a couple of blokes that are ok, while I’m on that point I must commend all you guys here at the aus varminters site I’m only new to it, actually only new to the whole internet thing but am enjoying it, its good to be able to talk to guys that don’t mind sharing their ideas etc. and you even get a laugh sometimes.
Anyway enough dribbling hope to talk again sometime soon

All the best
John

[trevort]

John this is a good site and most (all?) members are well behaved and happy to help if they can. Very few "flame" threads that seem prevalent on a lot of boards. In fact I was the main contributor to the last one but my apology has been accepted

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day All,
I usually use a bushing that is 0.002" smaller than the loaded round neck diameter. In 10 yrs of BR, I've never changed. This allows me to seat the bullet long, and have it push back into the neck for consistant bullet/rifling contact.

I use the same in my hunting rifles but some say use 0.003", so you do not have a bullet fall out of the neck. Having pulled bullets from cases with 0.002" I cant see it happening.

The critical factor in my mind is the consistent neck tension is the real reason for accuracy. This is achieved by neck turning and bushing dies.

Old brass can have varying hardness from use and therefore variable neck tension, so it pays to monitor seating force.....that's another reason to use 0.002" bushings for easier seating force.

So ditch any old brass that shows any signs of varying seating force!

BTW, over the years I have a bought good selection of bushings for .224 and 6mm and guess what, I use only 2 out of 10, and they were the first ones I bought for each calibre! So dont go overboard unless you can borrow bushings to try and buy if they work!

Also, I doubt very much if you will notice the difference between a bushing that gives 0.002" and 0.003" in any rifle especially a hunting rifle.

Hope this helps,

Cheerio Ned.

[1kshot]

No worries trev and its good to see they are forgiving

Ned’ Thanks for the info I will continue to use the .002 bushings and maybe clean up the necks a little and then have a play.

What do you use to check seating force is their any tools/measuring equipment available? The only thing I’ve got is the kinetic hammer and how much of a whack it takes , hardly science though ! using the press collet type puller has to much leverage to measure by feel, I suppose some sort of torque bar on the press and a collet puller or something (hmmm giving me ideas now for another project in the shed) , how would you go about regularly checking brass or would you just batch check? and how do you go about not damaging projectiles when being pull on a light tension I can understand it wouldn’t take much force but what about when its high due to hardened brass or trying diff tensions?

I better go I got to get to shed and try something???

All the best
John

[trevort]

only round i have tried 2 bushings for is the 6/250. Range comparisons inconclusive so far. BUT with the .267 bushing if I just let the handle go the force of it in gentle "free fall" will seat the projie (rockchucker) whereas the .266 bushing requires me to push it down.

A FLS 300 wsm case needs considerable force to seat.

So no measurement system but I can feel a difference!

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day All,
I should have mentioned that I use a BR style arbour press and Wilson seating dies. The arbour press does not have as much leverage as an O frame (regular) reloading press, so I can feel each bullet being seated with much more sensitivity and therefore I can easily feel the varing tension in each case neck. If they all feel about the same, then i dont worry. If they're different I'll cull that case from the batch.
see below....




Hope this helps

Cheerio Ned

[1kshot]

"Ok" Trevor and Ned you should off told me this “BEFORE” (only joking)
I didn’t know you just went by feel but as per usual I think I was making my life difficult but I’ve already had a couple of hr’s or so in the shed and have taken off the handle from an old simplex master o frame (that I don’t use) and put a bolt through the handle welded a 10mm hex head at 90 deg of the top, put a nut from underneath (as per usual handle attachment) and used my inch pound torque wrench (for scope mounts and stock attachment) to measure pressure seating, put a 308 seater in I know we started of on 204 but I have diff bushings and projectiles in 308 and don’t have the 204 gear and it seems to be working but I found because my torque wrench is a click type you can feel about when its going to snap but it doesn’t tell me how much to go or how much passed, I’ll give my brother a call I think he still has one of those CDI dial type in inch/pounds (hope it doesn’t work cause I think it set him back quite a few hundred bucks) and it’ll be playing on my mind until I get one!
Oh well worth a try! I think!!!
I don’t have an arbour press I know they are all the rage in BR are they worth it I use the forster BR or ultra seating dies and have a couple redding comp seating dies (from before I knew about the forster) for my good ones is it worth getting an abhor and changing over to the Wilson type

All the best
John

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day John,
the main point here is your current accuracy levels. Are they acceptable for your purpose? You can usually get 1/2moa from a decent factory rifle, but you'll have to spend $ to improve it and it is usually not by buying reloading gear, but triggers, barrels, scopes and accurising the action is where big improvements are gained

I own the arbour press and Wilson stuff because I shoot BR. It makes sense to me to use the same for all my reloading whether it is target or field use.

My understanding of the redding & forster gear is it is as good as you can get. The ammo accuracy levels they can deliver I believe are second to none. So I dont see a need to change anything unless you intend to shoot 100/200/300yd BR.

If you doubt your brass due to overwork/long life.......ditch it and buy new stuff (the best available!) It's easier in the long run!

hope this helps

Cheerio Ned

BTW I must congratulate you on being keen enough to go find out its always the wot if???? that creates technological break throughs, please let us know what you find out and test to see if accuracy improves or not. Good work mate!

[trevort]

I read a back article in precision shooter where they did set up some serious equipment to measure the force needed to release the projie. Of course force went up as necks were tighter but they found that the brass goes to point when it was sized too much that the bullet seating actually stretched it back out so required pressure started to then decrease as the neck tightened over this point.

My research on a few forums was that the redding comp seater was the best narrowly followed by the forster.

I am awaiting the delivery of my 6ppc BR rifle, Ned when we catch up you can tell me more about arbor presses et al.

i think learning to shoot the condition will make an exponentially larger impact on my groups than in line dies will. But if i get to a stage were I get competitive (if only) but cant win, then Ned you may teach me to take the final step!!!!