AusVarmint

Ok. 303-25 100gr Sierra Pro hunter, 36.8gr 2209, PMC primers, New Remington cases necked down.

I started with 99 cases loaded up sometime before 6 Sep 2009 when I gave them their first run. All fired fine and super accurate. Shot some more of them in the November 2009 without incident and again in March 2010 with no problems.

With just 21 left unfired out of the initial batch I took them out today and this is what happened with 12 of them.



Cleaned up.



The others are all fine.



Now i'm wondering what on earth affects loaded rounds that are just sitting in a safe?

Despite the splits they all fired ok although the primers on the split cases aren't flattened as much as the others which is normal as some of the pressure would leak out through the splits.

Ok sure. I have a much better idea. If you don't believe the brass need annealing.

Go fuck yourself and find advice from someone else.

I'm guessing you asked this question somewhere else by Wiz's response.

I think you need to anneal the brass

well, not the split ones. its too late for them, but the rest, anneal them before loading again or it looks like you'll find a lot more split necks after the next firing.

Ok. I post up here, and only here. Wiz doesn't read it properly and now i'm being told to go fuck myself.

Seriously WTF???

Sure the brass could now do with an anneal. I know that already. But like most people I'm of the understanding that brass will only get that hard and brittle from work hardening not from just sitting there doing nothing which is all that happened from first being loaded to it's first actual firing.

As I said they were loaded up together and most were fired before 6 months then the last were fired after 12 months and with a significant difference in performance.

I would expect that that would have most people wondering about the safety of the ammo they have sitting on the shelf. It certainly raises the question for me. But rather than just say that all brass has to be junked every 6 months I would rather explore options as to how and what actually happened.

And no it's not the chamber. The many fired other brass used in the same rifle (bertram) is fine and it's sat there for extended periods too.

Now if brass that's sitting there doing nothing can go from fine to brittle in 6 months then what good will annealing actually do? I could anneal it tomorrow but would that stop it from failing again in 12 months time?

Better to figure out what actually happened rather than accept an incorrect assumption by someone who won't even read a post.

Besides would you trust brass that has exhibited that behavior? I'm not annealing it. It's being junked which is a shame because that load shot so accurately in that brass.

Oh and wiz. Put the deleted posts back so that people can read the truth.

I read it just fine thanks, gave a response indicating they required annealing and that you were lucky they didn't all split on first firing.
I received sarcasm and a set of rolling eyes in reply.

trevort is an experienced operator and has given you the same answer.

My offer stands.

Wiz wrote:I read it just fine thanks, gave a response indicating they required annealing and that you were lucky they didn't all split on first firing.
I received sarcasm and a set of rolling eyes in reply.

No you didn't read it or you would have answered the only question in it.

Now i'm wondering what on earth affects loaded rounds that are just sitting in a safe?

Even the heading said "What went wrong?" not how do I fix it?
The rolls eyes was because with your post being completely off topic the thread only had one way to go and that was down. That's exactly where it's gone.

Wiz wrote: trevort is an experienced operator and has given you the same answer.

Trevort as he said, has responded based on your post so don't use him for support. I know he's an experienced operator and have a lot of respect for him.

Wiz wrote: My offer stands.

What offer?

You've only come back here because you're looking for an argument.

M12vlp I have to agree with the annealing answer.................................But how did you have the cases stored.The brass looks terribly "Dirty" and even after you cleaned them there looks to be a lot of pitting in the Brass.where they stored in a Ammo Belt as sometimes the ingredients in tanning fluids or leather dressing can effect brass.Years ago I used to store 22 Ammo in a leather belt and after extended storage they would go blue/green.

MISSED wrote:M12vlp I have to agree with the annealing answer.................................But how did you have the cases stored.The brass looks terribly "Dirty" and even after you cleaned them there looks to be a lot of pitting in the Brass.where they stored in a Ammo Belt as sometimes the ingredients in tanning fluids or leather dressing can effect brass.Years ago I used to store 22 Ammo in a leather belt and after extended storage they would go blue/green.

MTM cases in a timber ammo cabinet. Roomy and dry and relatively even temperature.

Yeah they're looking real dirty but that's from all the blow back from the splits filling up the chamber with crap. First 2 of the day split without me noticing. After that I was interested to see how many of the others would and also how well the old No 1 mk III action was handling it.

The old girl got plenty dirty

The cleaned up stuff wasn't cleaned up that well. Just thrown in the tumbler for a quick clean. The media needs refreshing

As I said though i'll junk these. Without knowing why they changed while just sitting there, I cannot be sure that annealing them will result in cases that actually stay annealed.

you have worked the brass to form it down fropm 303 to 25. How many times was it fired as 303? That forming in itself is a major exercise and the storage isnt the issue, some of your cases took the forming, others were pushed too far ready to split on next firing. Just the luck of the draw they were the ones fired last.

Dont junk the un split cases, anneal them and give them another go.

Now I didnt see any of the other posts. GAGF isnt normally an Ausvarmint answer

trevort wrote:you have worked the brass to form it down fropm 303 to 25. How many times was it fired as 303? That forming in itself is a major exercise and the storage isnt the issue, some of your cases took the forming, others were pushed too far ready to split on next firing. Just the luck of the draw they were the ones fired last.

Dont junk the un split cases, anneal them and give them another go.

Now I didnt see any of the other posts. GAGF isnt normally an Ausvarmint answer

It was unfired remington although I did not form it myself. I agree it was worked in the forming process.

Statistically though it's just not probable that the forming process alone over worked 12 out of 99 cases and put them all in the last 21 to be fired. Anyone care to do the maths on that

The last time I annealed cases for this rifle the necks ended up so inconsistent in tension that accuracy disappeared so i'll just buy more bertram brass and go with that. I only did the remington cases because I was over using the bertram stuff I had. Not saying that annealing is the wrong suggestion going forward, just that it's not for me

Agreed it's not a normal AV answer

Brass can alter with age ... its just not usually over 12 months. Many a well loaded and stored ex-mil case will show splits even though unfired, but we're talking a few decades worth of storage.
Out of interest, did you trim the brass before loading it? The 303/25 is mostly not the same length as 303British ... still doesn't explain the sudden splits though.
Cheers...
Con

G'day m12vlp,

Out of curiosity what were the conditions under which these loads were fired....and what powder were you using....?

You may find that the load you were using is grand on a nice cool day then on a hot day start to experience some verticle or worse......rupturing cases. I experienced similiar problems with a 338 Winchester Magnum that I had began developing loads for, in particular whilst using Magnum Primers with minimum loads that were taken from the ADI manual. Initially I thought that it was old brass that had corroded overtime and just turned to shit, however, I still had virgin brass from the same batch that was in excess of 10 year old. Having changed the Primer and the propellant this eradicated the problem of rupturing cases.

Another point to note is that Remington Brass is very, very soft. I recently destroyed a few cases whilst attempting to remove 2 thou from the necks.

I am not too familiar with PMC primers, however, I do know that PMC ammunition is loaded relatively hot and would be inclined to think that they may also be a hot primer.

I am not overly familiar with the 303, however, I would be inclined to believe that the load you have developed is certainly up there in terms of pressure.

Regards

Sean

Yeah I've heard of it aging and shrinking over time. Just wasn't expecting such a dramatic change in 12 months.

I've seen some old pics of a 10 year test with dramatic changes (dug them up and reposting here)



I've used a chamber length gauge to measure the chamber. I can safely run a 2.222 case length with plenty of clearance (> 0.025")
They're all trimmed below that but not to the 2.185 standard.

Could just be bad lot, i had some factory winchesters split in my swede, about half the box. Its never split any others and hasn't since, took em back and they accused us of loading em hot, they were bloody factories. Never went back to that shop!

If you ave any loaded ones left and you worried best to pull the proj, fire the empties with the primers then anneal them.

Ryan