Group analysis from the LR Experts

[Seddo]

That's a bummer, mine are out over 3.600"

[Brad Y]

What distance did you shoot at? I like the 72gr load. Seating depth adjustments will help take out horizontal shape from a group.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index. ... =3814361.0

[Rinso]

Keith you have found your low node at 69.5 grains. Like Jeff said you are at least 5 grains from where the powder becomes efficient and reaches pressure and the next node. The question is will the brass make it there and how long will it last? My 308 5R runs over 2800 fps with the 175s and Lapua cases running Re15 with no loss of primer pockets and virtually no sizing required. Remington or Winchester brass in a 300 WM won't last long and probably won't reach the next node. Lapua and RWS will.

What I can't tell from the pics is the rise in POI but at about 75 to 76 grains of SC there will be a sudden elevation shift, the bore will be less fouled with carbon and the recoil will be more heart felt. That is about where it all gets going. My own experience with the 300WM in heaps of guns is that the 175-190 grain pills node with SC is 77 grains. If memory serves, Stuart Elliot ran a 300 WM with 77 grains of SC and a 185 Lapua to win a whole heap of Fly matches. Pretty much a known formula. I think Rinso ran something very similar. Both ran Lapua cases. If you can't get there then the 308 is the choice and why so many go there. Unfortunately the books don't tell the whole story of pressure, accuracy and brass quality.

Always on the money Tony. If I recall correctly Stuart and I both ran 185 Lapua's at one stage using 75grns 2213sc and both had some success in the Fly with that load. The 175 Sierras worked well with 77grns 2213sc and again both had some good results. I also remember that both rifles were built on trued sleeved Rem700 actions (PESCO built).
I did notice a variation when I changed from a Maddco barrel to a Lilja with the powder load dropping to 73.3 grns 2213sc but no change in velocity which usually ran 3100 depending on location and conditions. Changing primers can have a big impact on results as well as pressure so might be worth looking at I found the Federal 210GM to be best in my rifle.
As Tony points out the run of the mill brass from Rem & Win just wont hold the pressure levels required I always ran Lapua as did Stuart. The only other brass worth looking at is the RWS if you want to get the pressure up for the higher nodes.
I noted earlier you commented on the twist rate being too slow for heavy pills at 1:11 in a different thread. Both Stuart and I ran 1:12 using up to 200grn pills without issue but we were driving them harder than you are. I would say that the 1:11 is fine for 200grners you need to sort your load out to make them work.
So you need to try more 2213sc ie 75grns with 185's - 77grns with 175's to achieve the next node. You also need to look at options for better brass, people seem to forget that brass is a consumable item, I would shoot a barrel out on a single lot of brass which for me was around 50 cases. If I had used cheaper brass I would have had to buy a lot more per barrel and not been able to get the results required, that's not considering the sorting and prep that went into each batch ... bit of a false economy really.
I suggest you have a think about what exactly you expect the rifle to achieve and then consider the effort you are prepared to put in to get there, it may well be that you either sell the rig and buy something else or you spend some cash on components.
One other thing and I am sure that Tony will correct me if I am wrong, but there was a well known formula for the 200grn Sierra using 66grns of 2209 I think which was a real benchmark load for the 300WM, it might be worth trying as a guide if nothing else I remember being told if a 300WM wouldn't shoot with that load it just wouldn't shoot. And be mindful of barrel temp when load developing with a 30WM and a light barrel.

[kjd]

Keith you have found your low node at 69.5 grains. Like Jeff said you are at least 5 grains from where the powder becomes efficient and reaches pressure and the next node. The question is will the brass make it there and how long will it last? My 308 5R runs over 2800 fps with the 175s and Lapua cases running Re15 with no loss of primer pockets and virtually no sizing required. Remington or Winchester brass in a 300 WM won't last long and probably won't reach the next node. Lapua and RWS will.

What I can't tell from the pics is the rise in POI but at about 75 to 76 grains of SC there will be a sudden elevation shift, the bore will be less fouled with carbon and the recoil will be more heart felt. That is about where it all gets going. My own experience with the 300WM in heaps of guns is that the 175-190 grain pills node with SC is 77 grains. If memory serves, Stuart Elliot ran a 300 WM with 77 grains of SC and a 185 Lapua to win a whole heap of Fly matches. Pretty much a known formula. I think Rinso ran something very similar. Both ran Lapua cases. If you can't get there then the 308 is the choice and why so many go there. Unfortunately the books don't tell the whole story of pressure, accuracy and brass quality.

Always on the money Tony. If I recall correctly Stuart and I both ran 185 Lapua's at one stage using 75grns 2213sc and both had some success in the Fly with that load. The 175 Sierras worked well with 77grns 2213sc and again both had some good results. I also remember that both rifles were built on trued sleeved Rem700 actions (PESCO built).
I did notice a variation when I changed from a Maddco barrel to a Lilja with the powder load dropping to 73.3 grns 2213sc but no change in velocity which usually ran 3100 depending on location and conditions. Changing primers can have a big impact on results as well as pressure so might be worth looking at I found the Federal 210GM to be best in my rifle.
As Tony points out the run of the mill brass from Rem & Win just wont hold the pressure levels required I always ran Lapua as did Stuart. The only other brass worth looking at is the RWS if you want to get the pressure up for the higher nodes.
I noted earlier you commented on the twist rate being too slow for heavy pills at 1:11 in a different thread. Both Stuart and I ran 1:12 using up to 200grn pills without issue but we were driving them harder than you are. I would say that the 1:11 is fine for 200grners you need to sort your load out to make them work.
So you need to try more 2213sc ie 75grns with 185's - 77grns with 175's to achieve the next node. You also need to look at options for better brass, people seem to forget that brass is a consumable item, I would shoot a barrel out on a single lot of brass which for me was around 50 cases. If I had used cheaper brass I would have had to buy a lot more per barrel and not been able to get the results required, that's not considering the sorting and prep that went into each batch ... bit of a false economy really.
I suggest you have a think about what exactly you expect the rifle to achieve and then consider the effort you are prepared to put in to get there, it may well be that you either sell the rig and buy something else or you spend some cash on components.
One other thing and I am sure that Tony will correct me if I am wrong, but there was a well known formula for the 200grn Sierra using 66grns of 2209 I think which was a real benchmark load for the 300WM, it might be worth trying as a guide if nothing else I remember being told if a 300WM wouldn't shoot with that load it just wouldn't shoot. And be mindful of barrel temp when load developing with a 30WM and a light barrel.

Thanks mate. I'm going to give the current powder/projectile combo some more work then look at other options.

I got Rem brass as it was the only brass I could get at the time. There isn't RWS in stock and I don't know about Nosler (what are your thoughts?).

We'll see how I go If I can get to 2900fps+ and good accuracy I'll be happy.

[mick_762]

Keith,
Not cheap, but it is RWS:
http://www.sportingguns.com.au/rws-case ... -20pk.html

Mick

[Rinso]

I have not used Nosler brass so I cannot speak too much about it. From what I have seen it is not nearly as good as Lapua or RWS.
I do have 200 Lapua 300WM new cases but they are not cheap.

[Curtley78]

I'd leave it at 72 grns and trial a few different primers and perhaps seating depth. But apart from that it looks pretty good.

[Ackley Improved]

When I had a 300wm I am pretty sure I was using 77 grains 2217 with a 190 nosler CC. Shot extremely well.

[trevort]

Keith I think you should ignore two of the most able and experienced loaders/shooters going around and go with the asylum seeker and be happy with 308 velocity and an inefficient case to get it.

In fact if you just pretend its a 308 then everything will be just fine!

[Curtley78]

The word is Mr. Thompson that you yourself would fit under category of an 'asylum seeker' or perhaps a person living under alias under the witness protection program.

You don't need to push a projectile at hyper velocity to achieve accuracy. I may not have a 300 WM but I do have a 338 WM and do know a bit about accurising the cartridge. As you may know they are very similar in ballistics.

Running a hot load on a magnum case can end in disaster - especially if your load was developed as a hot load in a colder climate and you find yourself in a warmer climate such as the back of Bourke. I don't know if you've ever experienced a magnum case let go and rupture in the action but it's not a pleasant experience but don't take my word for it - some people need to stand on their own dick a few times.

[DSD]

- some people need to stand on their own dick a few times.

I'm sorry but I am confused, are you trying to say that trevort has a big cock, short legs or needs to stand on it to stretch it?

[Vermingone]

Haha nice one

[mick_762]

I do have 200 Lapua 300WM new cases but they are not cheap.

Understatment of the year, I was looking at $300 for 100 cases
Just to reform them to .308 Norma

[Rinso]

I do have 200 Lapua 300WM new cases but they are not cheap.

Understatment of the year, I was looking at $300 for 100 cases
Just to reform them to .308 Norma

Only looking to get back the cost to me old mate. When things go out of production shop keeps can get a bit greedy. When you need the brass for match rifles and at that time RWS (the only other real alternative) was $5 per case you just pay the bill.

[monsoon35]

I agree Dave. You buy what works at whatever the cost as we both know it will perform. My old HG had 50 RWS cases for its first 2400 rounds before i retired them. The barrel went on to do over 3000 rounds where the load was a 200 SMK doing 3140 fps. A load that you won't find anywhere except maybe over at BRC where it was specified for Lapua or RWS cases only. Those cases didn't retire by splitting or losing primer pockets, i just felt it was time.

Let's be honest. Where would short range benchrest be today without the Lapua 220 Russian case? About 300 fps slower would be my guess and cases that would need replacement after every match instead of after every barrel. Sometimes it is easy to trip over the dollars to get to the cents.