AusVarmint

Sean Ambrose wrote:G'day m12vlp,

Out of curiosity what were the conditions under which these loads were fired....and what powder were you using....?

You may find that the load you were using is grand on a nice cool day then on a hot day start to experience some verticle or worse......rupturing cases. I experienced similiar problems with a 338 Winchester Magnum that I had began developing loads for, in particular whilst using Magnum Primers with minimum loads that were taken from the ADI manual. Initially I thought that it was old brass that had corroded overtime and just turned to shit, however, I still had virgin brass from the same batch that was in excess of 10 year old. Having changed the Primer and the propellant this eradicated the problem of rupturing cases.

Another point to note is that Remington Brass is very, very soft. I recently destroyed a few cases whilst attempting to remove 2 thou from the necks.

I am not too familiar with PMC primers, however, I do know that PMC ammunition is loaded relatively hot and would be inclined to think that they may also be a hot primer.

I am not overly familiar with the 303, however, I would be inclined to believe that the load you have developed is certainly up there in terms of pressure.

Regards

Sean

Hi Sean,

You've asked a lot of the same questions I've asked myself.

The powder was 2209. I originally worked up some loads in the 303-25 and settled on a mid one that was reasonably accurate without being hot so 36.8gr of AR2209. It's an old No1 Mk III action so hot loads are a no no.

Going back through my shooting logs I first used them in early September 2009 so I would have loaded them in August. I then shot them in November 2009 and March 2010. I can remember the march shoot (F-Class at 300m) and that it was pretty warm day. A lot warmer than yesterday. I will say that it's usual accuracy was fading in the march shoot. I just put it down to the thin barrel warming up as I sent down a few quick rounds.

The PMC primers are the old red Russian's. I've probably put through 400+ rounds with this load/primer/pill combination in other brass in all weather. I checked the primers and they were less flattened than the others. I checked them because I was thinking overload and if I recall correctly there was an issue in the past with AR2209.

Primer flattening (yeah i know it's not the only indicator) was the same in yesterdays un-ruptured cases to ones fired earlier.

Maybe I should mic them?

I'm actually kicking myself. I should have held onto a couple and pulled them. At the time I just wanted to get rid of them.

stinkitup wrote:Could just be bad lot, i had some factory winchesters split in my swede, about half the box. Its never split any others and hasn't since, took em back and they accused us of loading em hot, they were bloody factories. Never went back to that shop!

If you ave any loaded ones left and you worried best to pull the proj, fire the empties with the primers then anneal them.

Ryan

I'm thinking this is the most likely explanation. Just a bad lot that didn't like being stored and aged poorly.

I was just wondering if I could have contributed anything to the problem. Last thing i'd want to do is start again and then repeat the same mistake that caused this one.

The other thing is perhaps just load what your expecting to shoot in the nearish future. I do have some rounds that are getting on but try and use the fresher loads as I believe neck tension and things can change over time but usually they become less I thought.

Anyway good luck with it.

stinkitup wrote:The other thing is perhaps just load what your expecting to shoot in the nearish future. I do have some rounds that are getting on but try and use the fresher loads as I believe neck tension and things can change over time but usually they become less I thought.

Anyway good luck with it.

Will do. Thanks for the responses guys.

stinkitup wrote:......I do have some rounds that are getting on but try and use the fresher loads as I believe neck tension and things can change over time but usually they become less I thought.

Anyway good luck with it.

With the loaded rounds that came with the 338 WM that I inherited, I was able to remove the projectile with ease and in some instances the 250 grn projectiles fell out.

Regards

Sean

Get some new brass, form it to 303-25, anneal it properly - if you wrecked cases previously when annealing them that would be down to technique. It's bloody hard to get very consistent doing it manually and if you are going to miss the mark it's normally by overdoing it, rather than under-annealing them. I've been doing it by trial and error with forming 221 fireball cases from ADI 223 brass. Same neck diameter but the shoulder is pushed down a fair way, about 10mm. So I'm gonna make a little machine to help me by consistently annealing them just right. This link is one I found when searching around for a bit more info http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm I think the same piece is also on 6mmbr.com. Do a search for annealing machine over at AHN, there's a video of a homebrewed machine in action, made by an AHN member (jquin I think)

Sam Walker wrote:Get some new brass, form it to 303-25, anneal it properly - if you wrecked cases previously when annealing them that would be down to technique. It's bloody hard to get very consistent doing it manually and if you are going to miss the mark it's normally by overdoing it, rather than under-annealing them. I've been doing it by trial and error with forming 221 fireball cases from ADI 223 brass. Same neck diameter but the shoulder is pushed down a fair way, about 10mm. So I'm gonna make a little machine to help me by consistently annealing them just right. This link is one I found when searching around for a bit more info http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm I think the same piece is also on 6mmbr.com. Do a search for annealing machine over at AHN, there's a video of a homebrewed machine in action, made by an AHN member (jquin I think)

I've seen the machines. My previous annealling effort probably failed because of the original condition of the brass and my expectations. For preventing splits I probably did a great job but inconsistent neck tension does not equal good accuracy.

But annealing or not is not the cause. Like I said it's not going to do me any good to anneal brass then have it go off on the shelf anyway. If that's the case, annealing is just a waste of time.

So the cases were annealed to begin with ?
and then they split after sitting around for 12 months ?
or, if they weren't annealed, how do you know that annealed cases will split if stored for a fair while ?

Sam Walker wrote:So the cases were annealed to begin with ?
and then they split after sitting around for 12 months ?
or, if they weren't annealed, how do you know that annealed cases will split if stored for a fair while ?

I understand the point you're trying to make but
The point of this thread is... Annealed or not, cases do not go from good to bad after just 12 months of sitting on a shelf.

So if they did that un-annealed, which they shouldn't, then why wouldn't they do that when annealed? Sure they might not but that's a lot of stuffing around for no guarantees.

Actually looking at the splits again it's interesting to note that they've split from the base of the pill, down through the shoulder. Remember that the shoulder is not affected by the forming process for this cartridge. So forming the cartridge is not the issue. If the weakening by the forming process was a factor then they would have split upwards. Why is the area that was holding the pill fine

That takes annealing out of the discussion... these new cases changed significantly in just 12 months of sitting on the shelf. Why?
As was pointed out it was probably just a bad batch. I can live with that.

It's also worth pointing out that new 303-25 brass can be easily purchased despite there not being any commercially available loaded ammunition. I don't need to form and anneal

I've also seen the effects of annealing gone wrong Not me, a fellow shooter. It's not for hacks no matter how simple it may seem

Winchester brass in 303British is unadulterated CRAP.

But ... I took 303British to 303/25 in one pass, shortened it to spec ... fired it ... then necked it to 270cal (303/270) ... fired it twice ... been in storage whilst loaded for the past 2 years ... still fine.
Cheers...
Con

m12vlp wrote:Yeah I've heard of it aging and shrinking over time. Just wasn't expecting such a dramatic change in 12 months.

I've seen some old pics of a 10 year test with dramatic changes (dug them up and reposting here)



I've used a chamber length gauge to measure the chamber. I can safely run a 2.222 case length with plenty of clearance (> 0.025")
They're all trimmed below that but not to the 2.185 standard.

If you are running cases with 25 thou of clearance with brittle cases theres your problem. Annealing should sort the problem.

Now I have read this entire post but cannot see if these cases were fireformed then loaded to your favorite specs or not. Did you fireform?

kickinback wrote:
If you are running cases with 25 thou of clearance with brittle cases theres your problem. Annealing should sort the problem.

Now I have read this entire post but cannot see if these cases were fire formed then loaded to your favorite specs or not. Did you fireform?

Ahh. 25 thou case length clearance is normal for even a modern factory rifle.

This was the first firing. It's interesting to note that the splits are all below the projectile. Brittle brass that let go after a bit of neck weld which was enough to hold the rest of the neck together and stop it splitting.

I've had essentially the same thing happen with Remington .221 Fireball cases. I bought a 100ct. bag, and loaded them with a relatively mild load, and boxed them up for about a year, maybe a little longer.
When I took them out to shoot them (one fifty round box) I had 25 out of the 45 fired split the necks (still haven't shot the other five rounds). To be sure it wasn't a dimensional problem in my CZ's chamber, I shot ten rounds thru my buddy's Remington 700 Classic. Split necks in that rifle, too.
I got on the computer and asked a couple of my friends who also own rifles in .221, and asked them to do some measurements of loaded cases vs. fired cases vs. unfired/sized cases, and my rifle's dimensions were, if anything, tighter than their rifles, so I know it's not my rifle's chamber, at least.


It's Remington's shit brass, I will never, ever, buy another rifle where Remington is the sole provider of cases. No freakin' way . If Remington can't be bothered to anneal cases, I won't spend my money with them. Have you priced any .221 Fireball cases? $44 USD, for 100 of the things, Gawd only knows what you'd pay for them in Aus!

For that kind of money USD, the cases should be perfect. .223 cases, using a LOT less material, are half the price of the Fireballs. I'm thinking about having the rifle rechambered for .222, and using Winchester cases from now on. No more Remington shit.

hows it going m12vlp i have just read this post and and i myself have a 303-25 No4 mk1 and from my reloading experiances with this case i havent had to anneal the cases as yet i use winchester and remmington brass all brand new and run them through a 6.5x55 neck sizing die then run them through my 303-25 full length resizing die and then trim to my desired length and i have had no dramas so far i use winchester large rifle primers and AR2208 powder behind a 85gr pills not sure how much powder im using or my trim length as i dont have my reloading data here with me and i leave my ammo sitting in the safe for periods of anywhere between 12 to 18 months from reloading and firing hope my advice helps

cheers luke

from the photo neck tension hmm high did u use epander ball or not?