An observation with 2209.

Tony Z · Post by **Tony Z** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:05 pm

In the last few weeks i have ginned around with the Defiance and 260 Rem barrel before it gets sidelined for the 6mm Creedmoor barrel.

Some of you know i have many batches of ADI powders including 2209 dating back to the steel tin and paper label, to the latest plastic cannister stuff.
A month ago i loaded and tried 130 grain RDFs, 130 TMKs and 123 ELD Ms with 1980s 2209. The TMKs shot a bug hole, the RDFs were MOA and the 123s were undecided with 3 Libs and one each of Labor and Greens outliers. There was no load development, just ADI maximum load in Win cases for each of the pills.
Last weekend i shot with current lot 2209 and the exact same charge weights. The TMKs shot SSG pattern, the RDFs were unchanged and the 123s shot better than i was shooting. Not a good example of precision shooting but should have been bughole except for a wrong guess on the wind strength cutting a wide slot. The end result is the two batches are totally different in performance with the 123s running to just a tickle under 3100 fps with the new batch, a gain of a 100 fps from the earlier batch, as well as an increase of 50 fps in both the 130 grain pills. So i am assuming that the current lot is somewhat quicker. BUT, the velocity gain over the early batch using the 130 grain pills puts it on the mark the manuals and other sources say it should be but the 123s are a 100 fps over the relative data.
If that is confusing, simply the early batch lines up with the lighter 123s and velocity stated and the 130s are slow, then the new batch lines up with data for the 130s very closely but is considerably faster with the 123s.
The conclusion i get is that 2209 has changed, which many of us already knew, and lines up empirically very closely with the heavier pills. Unfortunately i didn't and don't use the 140 grain range of pills so i cannot make a determination there.
A while back i did a similar thing with 2208 in a 6BR. The getaway from that was drastically different as compaed to the 2209 trial where there were no pressure issues. With known load data from older batches that was transfered conservatively working up with newer lots was an exercise in how to destroy both cases, accuracy and lose velocity. At no point could i replicate known accuracy or velocity potentials of either barrel where some batches were so fast that the listed ADI maximum of 30.5 grains with a 107 grain pill was excessive and loosened primer pockets and as such i deemed those lots as outright dangerous. This is nothing new as many others have found similar results and why i always refer to either Re15 or 16 to anyone wanting more reliable results. I may mention that the M118 308 match load used in the US has been altered from Varget back to Re15. I'm not surprised.

The Raven · Post by **The Raven** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:36 pm

That’s interesting info. I run 2209 in my 270 but have only used current production stuff.

IIRC I chrono’d some rounds and found them slightly slower than the load data suggested.

That’s OK with me as it still shoots great and has killed most critters I pointed it at.

Once I shoot through my current loads I’ll be breaking open a new tub so will see if I notice anything (I don’t think I’m good enough to notice).

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Ken Melgaard · Post by **Ken Melgaard** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:20 pm

Tony,
Since 2017 “new plant” ATK manufactured propellant and from 1944 to 2017 the old “DuPont” plant so you will see different, it taken a few years on the ATK process to work out the bugs.
As, in about late 2019 AR2209 had a lot of issues, as one of the production guys l know said every batch was coming out different (AR2209) a lot of shooters with 6mm Dashes said accuracy had gone to shit (around Lot # 7000 series)
Something Thales (ADI) won’t tell

Tony Z · Post by **Tony Z** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:29 pm

Anyone is capable raven, a chrono will tell you as will bolt lift and general pressure signs.
I might add these irregularities started to appear at around the time production changed ownership. Not saying these are bad changes, there certainly can be beneficial aspects and accurate loads found. What i am actually saying, if you run one powder for a long time, then have to go to newer lots, don't expect the same result. Once upon a time with ADI you could.

The Raven · Post by **The Raven** » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:19 pm

Thanks for the info guys. Just checked my lot and it 7100+.

Yet to use it yet but will be interested to see if I spot any differences. Probably hints that I should look at buying a chrono rather than borrowing one.

As a test I may restart load development with that batch and see if I end up at the same point as the old. Nothing to lose.

BTW there’s no pressure signs. This was particularly true when using the same Win 360 (???) powder supplied by the previous owner. His load data was much hotter than I dared (until it ran out). I feel I have sorted out a 2209 load but will watch the next batch.

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Tony Z · Post by **Tony Z** » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:14 am

Straight from the horses mouth. Thanks Ken.

Old Trev-39 · Post by **Old Trev-39** » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:15 pm

The canister I am using at the moment purchased 08-02-20 going well, Lot MEM5783. Yesterday I purchased another Lot MEM7185. Have made a note on it to re- check load and start a little lower.
Cheers,
Trevor.

The Raven · Post by **The Raven** » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:48 pm

Old Trev-39 wrote:The canister I am using at the moment purchased 08-02-20 going well, Lot MEM5783. Yesterday I purchased another Lot MEM7185. Have made a note on it to re- check load and start a little lower.
Cheers,
Trevor.

Can’t recall the last batch, unless I look.

Funnily enough I have the same batch MEM7185.

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Brad Y · Post by **Brad Y** » Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:09 am

My observation is that all ADI powder made with BTI technology has a faster burn rate than pre BTI batches. Nothing to worry about if you have a good chrony to check this with.

The Raven · Post by **The Raven** » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:49 pm

Have you had to adjust your loads or is it a marginal difference?

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stinkitup · Post by **stinkitup** » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:17 am

Just loaded up 40 odd Swede rounds for the weekend with its favourite 2209, I don't load to max but will be checking out the batch numbers now. Pretty sure I have had all of them for a while.

Here's a question what do the more experienced shooters do when they are left with small amounts of powder? Good fertilizer I hear.

Ryan

Camel · Post by **Camel** » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:47 pm

Depends, if its the same as the new tin I am opening, I just mix it in with that, don't worry about batch numbers, but I don't load to max in anything so its been fine so far.

You could burn it, or chuck it over the lawn and water it in

RDavies · Post by **RDavies** » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:52 am

Us F class shooters noticed a difference with the new BTI powders a while ago and they have all sped up.
This isn’t always a bad thing.
In a lot of cases 2209 was a tad too slow, but now is just right. Previously 2213sc was a poofteenth too slow but is now just right.

For some 2209 will now be too fast burning, so now 2213sc might be worth revisiting.

Vermingone · Post by **Vermingone** » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pm

If you check the ADI website for loads under that caliber say 12 months ago and again now you would notice from time to time that the max load data changes usually max charges drop

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