Ned Kelly needs some advice!

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day All,
I've got a young bloke in town who has just got his licence and wants to buy a 22lr, centrefire and shottie.

Now for the .22LR, I'd recommend he gets a CZ new or secondhand (then he has more $$$ for the CF) and a 4 or 6 fixed power scope (suggestions?) and I have no idea about the shottie other than buy one that he finds points well.

As for the centrefire I believe it is for rabbits and foxes and possibly (?) larger animals such as goats. I'd have to confirm that though.

Originally I'd suggested to him the .223 because every maker has one, ammo is easy to find and cheap, low recoil to learn on, same cleaning gear to look after the .22LR & .223 and most of us older shooter cut our teeth on .222's or .223's so this is why I'm leaning this way.

But I know most of the shooting it will do will be rabbits and foxes and given it is his first centrefire that maybe I had overlooked the 20 cals for a new CF shooter to cut their teeth on..................

Am I wrong to suggest the .223 for shooting goats or should I put him on to the 20 cal's then later on he can get a 308 for goats pigs and deer?

Also a good quality scope for the CF like a 4-12x40 with a good warranty. I dont know what his budget is but I'd expect he would spend up to $400-$600 on the scope.

A window shopping trip is planned for next week...........and I dont want to give him bad advice and definately dont want to waste his hard earned $$$ (and have to get 2 cleaning rods, brushes, jags and have the risk of putting a 22 brush down a 20 cal bore....will it get stuck?)

Thanks guys

Cheerio Ned

[fenring]

Most of what you say makes sense.

For the .22 it's hard to argue with CZ as they are great value for the $$, and the CZ American is IMO one of the best values around at the moment. The Silhouette model isn't bad either (I have to say that I hate the skinny, low combed "classic" stock on some of their models though)

For a scope I'd run with either a fixed 6X or even better a 3-9X40 as IMO an accurate .22 will outrun a 4X quick smart.

Shotgun - Yildiz and Zafer seem to be good value for money. Mate has a Yildiz O/U and for the $$ it is a very nice gun indeed.

Centrefire - I think the .223 is the way to go if it will mostly be used for rabbits and foxes. I'd forego the .204 as all factory loads are varmint loads and the ammo is much dearer than .223. The .223 would be a better all rounder if goats are on the menu at any stage and it can even be pressed into service for pigs if need be. The other thing is that there are a lot of rifles to choose from in .223 and in all configurations from light sporter to varmint and tactical. Much better chance of getting .223 ammo in remote towns if the need ever arises - it's what most pro roo shooters use now. Can also use the one rod and brushes on the .22 and .223.

The 4-12 scope is also a good choice.

[kjd]

hi mate I think the 223 is the way to go! With the right projectiles it will be fine on goats and the 20 cals IMO are too dedicated to varminting!
The cz is great value I lovemine!!

[Knackers]

I reckon Fenring covered this very well and I agree 100% with what he said and if anyone was asking about what to get I would point them to this thread.
Same as keith I reckon the 20 cals would not be versatile enough
Fancy that us giving Neddie advice

[ogre6br]

Most of what you say makes sense.

Agreed
seems well thought out and logical

For the .22 it's hard to argue with CZ as they are great value for the $$, and the CZ American is IMO one of the best values around at the moment. The Silhouette model isn't bad either (I have to say that I hate the skinny, low combed "classic" stock on some of their models though)

Will the 22 be used for just hunting or will it be used for comps as well--= field rifle comps are a very good way of improving field shooting performance. Dont know if they have opened field rifle comps to HMR yet............
The last CZ I used was TrevorT's 17 HMR (Varmint model I think)- it was very solid, accurate, with a less than $40 spent on a Brooks trigger kit- the trigger was very smooth
Even with my limited experience with the HMR ---the HMR round is much more a hunting round than the 22lr is.
If he's going to use the 22 for comps rather than hunting- maybe a second hand model 4 or something like that
but then again for purely hunting 22- follow Thomo'sd lead an pick up a lithgow model 12- accurate dependable- SFA $$ to purchase- and no ones really goingto worry if it picks up a scratch or 3 in the paddocks
if he has the $$ straight up what about one of the various models Anshultz
I think the rimfire purchase is going to be the hardest to cover- maybe a cheap lithgow for hunting/learning now and save $$ for a quality rimfire later once he decides what he wants to do with his rimfire

I know a quality one can cost a few $$ ( sometimes enthusiasts like me can spend $$$$ on them) but please dont discount a modern air rifle- and not some Chinese piece of crap on the market now boasting 1000 fps in .177- blah blah crap- hack spit

Talk to Lewis and see what he has there-- please go to the professional with airguns- not the local shop- he will only be disappointed with the local shops chinese crap (it's all they seem to carry these days) and probably be ruined for AG his shooting life- which will be a shame as they are a heap of fun
There are many oportunities where you can use and air rifle where any sort of powder burner cannot be used.
Spending a few hundred $ with lewis on a quality AG opens up many hunting and shooting possibilities
Living out you way I imagine here are plenty of lifestyle blocks- a good AG will allow him to hunt them without disturbing anyone
pest birds in sheds/barn
Rats/mice
Other vermin/ferals around livestock- an airgun doesn't normally disturb stock- I have used an AG on horse adjistment places and the horses hardly even look up
A good airgun and a tin of pellets is a LOT of hunting- and it also promotes good shot placement and care

helping the locals out can and does get you access to more properties

For a scope I'd run with either a fixed 6X or even better a 3-9X40 as IMO an accurate .22 will outrun a 4X quick smart.

Agreed
I quickly outgrew a 4x40 on my Sako p94S- stepped upto a 6x42 and was a lot happier- finer X-hairs make accurate shot placement easier.

Shotgun - Yildiz and Zafer seem to be good value for money. Mate has a Yildiz O/U and for the $$ it is a very nice gun indeed.

Cannot suggest anything on shotties- have NFA whats out there in the last 8 years.
Maybe S/H Italian might be better than new something of lesser value-
I learnt to shoot with a Bentleigh 8 shot pump with rifle sights so I never really got the whole both eyes open thing.
Also with shotties you need to check the eye dominance thing- it's a real shit when you are right handed and left eye dominant using an over and under- you never get the propper sight picture unless you sludge up the left eye of his shooting glasses and force him to use his right eye
If he uses his left eye his whole sight picture is up the shit and he'll be lucky to hit anything at all as he'll be looking at the side of the barrels and not down them

How far are you from Waghorn- he's suposed to be a good shotgun stock fitter- with a 12 guage I dont know that type is that important over fit- with a properly fitting single barrel he will hit 1000 times more than a badly fitting Perrazzi

Centrefire - I think the .223 is the way to go if it will mostly be used for rabbits and foxes. I'd forego the .204 as all factory loads are varmint loads and the ammo is much dearer than .223. The .223 would be a better all rounder if goats are on the menu at any stage and it can even be pressed into service for pigs if need be. The other thing is that there are a lot of rifles to choose from in .223 and in all configurations from light sporter to varmint and tactical. Much better chance of getting .223 ammo in remote towns if the need ever arises - it's what most pro roo shooters use now. Can also use the one rod and brushes on the .22 and .223.

The 4-12 scope is also a good choice.

Fenring has covered it here- except for saying get a fast twist .223- best of both worlds

A good varmint load .223 will work wonders on rabbits foxes etc-
Ignore the people who say you loose accuracy with fast twist and light projectiles- from all the stuff I have read if you colated all that info you might loose 1/4 to 1/2 MOA in a fast twist with really light projectiles - sub 50 grain- can a begginner hold to that level of accuracy in the field?
NO
just find a varmint load-- 50-55 grain-- the fast twist likes and shoot it- if it likes it it will shoot it- he will miss more shots from poor technique etc than he will from the supposed difference in accuracy potential between a fast twsit and slow twist with hunting projectiles in a 223

I use the FAE223G FEDERAL 223REM AM/EAGL 50GR JACKETED HP for my .223 shooting. On sale it's cheap and works
The accuracy diff between it and my re-loads meant the time spent doing the reloads was wasted time that I could use load other rounds

F223L FEDERAL 223 REM 64GR JSP PWRSHOK- works great on any of larger ferals with propper placement- it really seems to hit above its grade. same wit hthe winchest 60+ grain CPX load- dont know it's exat weight
Tom Varney prefers it for Dogs in his .223

With the faster twsit he can grab some NRA 69 stuff and go play in F-class
I'm sure you'll get him to the range a bit

As to a scope for the 223-- best he can afford 3-9 or 3.5-10 or 4-12 ???? If he's going to play in F-class maybe a 4-12 might be better

Quality mounts like the optilocks of the burris insert type mounts need to be costed into the equation

sorry this is so long

but hope it helps

P

[stinkitup]

What everyone has said, for scopes, check out the Vortex section, there were some end of year specials that might still be available.

[ogre6br]

............ then later on he can get a 308 for goats pigs and deer?.............
Thanks guys
Cheerio Ned

Whispering quietly so it filters in your brain and you cannot get rid of the thought- like that song you cannot get out of your head.......

6.5x55 is your friend

later
P

[trevort]

Ned, I will be the 20 defender as you would expect from me having just rebarrelled a 223 to a 20 cal wildcat.

The 20 cals crap all over the 223 as a dedicated varmint round. If he is very rarely going to shoot bigger stuff then why not get the ultimate varmint round. If he is going to have regular access to larger ferals then again why compromise with a 223 and not a 22/250 that can push bigger pills at higher speeds. If you go on the dedicated varmint websites in the US you will find the 223 is not the king. I know you are a PS subscriber, did you read the article a few months ago when they took a whole shitload of guns from 221 fb to (i think) 243 out to the dog towns and all preferred the 20 cal. You are going to teach him to load arent you? Ammo cost wont be an issue will it?

Pat my CZ 17hmr is not a varmint model. I am a CZ fan. Ned I never consider the hunting qualities of a 22 (awaits howls of derision especially after recent posts by Fen and Thomo!) so sold the cz varmint I bought when I first got my licence but regretted it and recently added a Stirling 22 to the safe. No better way to get cheap trigger time to learn to shoot. Wish I still had the CZ!

[trevort]

oh, you wont get a 22 rod stuck in 20 cal barrel, it wont fit in the first place!

and I know stuff all about shotties, apart from the mates stole my jocks while I was in the bush shower a few trips back, hung them in a tree and blasted them with a rizzini hombra. Apparently this is such fun they had to do it again last trip and tied the offending bullet ridden article to the back of the ute as some sort of sick trophy flag for the drive home!

[MISSED]

I to am with Fen on this from rimfire to shotty.Have a look at Vortex scopes mate and of course a wolf eyes torch

[damien couper]

ned im doing the same for a mateso this is what i found for him. dont look past the marlins in .22 for about $450 with a good 3x9x40 there pretty good and you can spend more on a better scope or cleaning gear, ammo...or the zafer pointer shotguns they got a good right up in the mags and on the net to
.......us giving Ned advice never though that would happen

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day all,
thanks for the advice and yes, if I'm not sure I'll ask around. Like I said, I dont wont to waste his hard earned $$$. Its good to have a forum like this to be a sounding board to kick ideas around!

TrevorT, I'm concerned that he might fit a 22 cal brush to a 20cal rod and jam it in the 20 cal bore..................if you know what I mean. The visual differences between a 22 cal brush to a 20 cal brush must be hard to pick by eye alone.

Thanks Damien, he'd looked at a package deal for a marlin 22 in Bendigo last week but I've had nothing to do with marlin 22's for nearly 25years so dont know what they are currently like. So that will give him something else to consider.

To all, thanks for the replies and to Pat for the subliminal messages for the pros for the 6.5x55, but I believe it is not legal to use on Sambar if I remember correctly!

Cheerio Ned

[Brad Y]

The marlin rimfires are good rifles. They need a trigger job but apart from that work well. My 22lr blued synthetic marlin outshoots a mates CZ. My 17hmr has shot sub 0.5" groups before too. Nothing wrong with them at all.

I would go the 223 if he wants to a centerfire to do all those things, if he would consider a varmint rifle and a hunting rifle, then a 204 and maybe something like a 308 so ammo is easy to come by.

Shotty i got no idea but have used a yildiz before and it worked fine.

[trevort]

Ned, buy the right rod for him. My 22 and up size brushes and jags wont fit on my 20 cal rod, different thread. And can I just say, thats the worst excuse ever for not getting a 20 cal Now if you said you were going to induct him into the murky world of F Class then I would just have to shut up and agree with you on the 223!

[ogre6br]

Pat my CZ 17hmr is not a varmint model.

What model was the one you let me use in SA that night you got the Dingo?

That's a ripper of a rifle- please dont tell me you sold that.......

P