Barrel Run In???

[flyer]

Count me in as one who subscribes to the practice. I've just done it different every time.

Flyer

[Knackers]

Yep I run in any new rifle I buy. Why not, carnt hurt, its only one and a half boxes of ammo, a bit of solvent and a shit load of patches. Gunsmiths recommend it, as do many ather barrel makers, and most benchresters, as other posts have said.
I run in my new cars and change the oil at 1000kms and then change as per the service book. I dont see any diff with a rifle, clean after each shot then when done clean after each session.
Had this arguement with blokes before and they are mostly hunters that seem to bork at the idea.
I'm trying to get my groups as small as possible, and I'll try anything, whether that be physical, machanical, mental or something that gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, and if it helps build my confidence a bit, then GOOD stuff I reckon.

[kjd]

I run in my new cars and change the oil at 1000kms and then change as per the service book. I dont see any diff with a rifle, clean after each shot then when done clean after each session.
:

but the difference is that cars have thousands of moving parts moving at thousands of times per minute. A barrel doesnt move.

[Jack H]

I run in my new cars and change the oil at 1000kms and then change as per the service book. I dont see any diff with a rifle, clean after each shot then when done clean after each session.
:

but the difference is that cars have thousands of moving parts moving at thousands of times per minute. A barrel doesnt move.

Only one moving part....... and its travelling at about 3500fps

[kjd]

I run in my new cars and change the oil at 1000kms and then change as per the service book. I dont see any diff with a rifle, clean after each shot then when done clean after each session.
:

but the difference is that cars have thousands of moving parts moving at thousands of times per minute. A barrel doesnt move.

Only one moving part....... and its travelling at about 3500fps

I'm sure a 30-30 isnt lol. The point I'm trying to make is that moving part is ALOT softer than the barrel. Car parts are all made out of materials similar in hardness and the cylinders go in and out the pistons anywhere from 2-5thousand times a minute and are expect to run for hours. No-one really expects more than 2000 shots out of something thats travelling 3500fps plus.

[Knackers]

Thanks for the education fellas, I thought the car only had four cylinders, how farkin stupid of me to forget that they have about 2000 parts inside them.
I have been taught that to wear something in properly, that you have to remove any forein material that has been left from the manufacturing process etc etc etc
Hey its a free world don't do it if don't want too.

[kjd]

Thanks for the education fellas, I thought the car only had four cylinders, how farkin stupid of me to forget that they have about 2000 parts inside them.
I have been taught that to wear something in properly, that you have to remove any forein material that has been left from the manufacturing process etc etc etc
Hey its a free world don't do it if don't want too.

Anytime. Did you wear your pc in??

re: foreign materials.... Thats why you clean a new barrel before you shoot it get rid of the grease n crap like that...

Here are a few quwstions for those who always break-in barrels:
1) How many benchresters have not run in a barrel?

2) if any of you havent broken in one to see what would happen and just clean it before you shoot it then after you have finished shooting it what exactly are the differences between a broken in and not broken in barrel?

3) Where are the independant scientific studies that prove that it works?

I'm just of the belief that this is all hearsay and have seen with my own eyes that there is no noticible differences in terms of fouling and accuracy in my hunting and varmint rifles.

[Knackers]

Kjd, I havent got the proof , but I can say that I have run in the last 4 rifles that I have brought. I have a Rem700 vsf .22.250 and I ran it in and can shoot .320 groups pretty consitantly. I also have a CZ 527 sporter in .223 and I put about 60 rounds threw that rifle before it got its first clean. That .223 will shoot under .5" all day, I wonder if I had of run it in whether it would shoot any smaller groups? I'll never know if it could of as I think I've done as much load development as seems practical and missed the oppartunity to try it, now that its had 2000 shots threw it.
Like I said I have no proof and I don't know how you could prove it, but I've done it both ways and I carn't say whether it makes a diff or not, but like I said, if it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that I've done the right hting then I'm happy.
I know its not for everyone, and I am a very sceptical person, but this is one procedure that I will continue to do to every new rifle I buy, and that wont be very many at all now that the new bub arrived the other day.
BTW the only moving parts in a PC is the fan and the disc drive isn't it and I wouldn't think that they would have the friction, speed or weight to cause anything to wear?
I can totally see where your coming from KJD, its a bit of which came first "the chicken or the egg" we'll never know.
have a good day mate.

[kjd]

Mate .500" is exceptional from any sporter... Your other rifle is a heavy barrelled varminter. If you want to do it go for it. I just see no way it works but thats just my opinion.

With regards to PC's:

Fans, CD/DVD (spin at speeds of around 20000rpm off the top of my head) and floppy drives all have moving parts and so do hard drives which spin at around 7400rpm. Not that you can run them though

[Knackers]

KJD thanks about the PC thing I was unaware thay had that much shit inside them. PC's sound soft and gentle in operation, compared to a diesel or a rifle fireing. I wont give any advice about PC's again.

In your post you asked about fouling? well my Rem250 fouls a lot worse than the CZ that I didnt run in? Could that be because of the diff in powder volume's? or has the Rem got a shittyer barrel than the CZ? Would the CZ group tighter than the Rem if run in from the start.
I've got a .17HMR and I ran that in and it has very little fouling, but again is this because of an even smaller powder charge? or is this just the way they are?

Rem- run in, accurate, heavy fouling. best group .292" @ 100

CZ not run in, accurate, very little fouling. best group .395"@ 100

CZ.17 run in accurate, little fouling. best group .262 @ 50

Must admit though I got half way through running in my Marlin .30/30 and got the shits about taking the rifle apart to clean after each shot and got to about six when I thought farkit and just put the rest of the box through it.
Those are the best groups I've ever done, the other post was my normal days grouping, logic tells me that soft copper down hard barrels shouldn't make a rats arse diff, but I still have to do it for peice of mind.
Can you answer the fouling problem (.22.250 ) for me, as it was run in, could the heavy fouling be the charge diff between the 250 and the 223, or is this a common thing with 250's, or a shit finished barrel.

Must admit KJD I'm starting to wonder myself now that I've been doing some thinking?

[kjd]

Mate are we talking copper or powder fouling? 22-250's burn alot of powder for bore size so that could be a reason for the fouling but I dont think it would make that much difference. Could be powder type (heard 2206H burns dirty) could be bullet type and have softer copper? I do not know? It could be that a pill is travelling over 3600fps too lol.

I have a 22-250 and it doesnt foul that bad. Though I'm not using hot loads at all.

If you feel better about breaking a rifle in than thats cool I just dont see the point but I dont benchrest either.
I just dont see how a cleaning brush and solvent can do that much I mean if there were any burrs in the barrel it would only take so many shots before it was gone and it aint gonna matter providing you clean your rifle before you shoot it when you get it new and then every time after you finished shooting it.

Any slight imperfections will affect accuracy but if there are any small burrs or knicks that may affect it then they would soon be sorted out by the pressure, heat and bullet rather then stripping that layer of copper (and we would be talking microns of copper on the barrel) with cleaning.

I dont think that couple of micron thick copper fouling would affect anything in the early stages of a barrels life any different to the latter stages. Providing you clean your rifle well after you have finished using it I cant see it making any difference.
Cheers!

[Kenny]

kjd,

Can you show me some scientific proof of that it doesn't work sorry couldn't help meself

I am far from an expert in this subject but I can tell you what I have experienced with button rifled stainless barrells

For the first few shots during a barrell run in I have noticed, a LOT of copper is always present in the barrell as shown on the cleaning patches when cleaning between shots. The first few shots are always a little erratic but this is probably due to the burrs being blown off the crown.

This amount of copper diminishes as more shots are fired and the firing/ cleaning process goes on. Usually after around a 20 shot cycle....and that varies barrell to barrell.....the copper fouling is fairly non existent or rather, it is at an acceptable level, as there will always be some present in the corners of the grooves.

The cleaning process between shots exposes these rough areas to a fresh helping of abrasion & heat from the next shots going down. If you did not clean this copper off the rough spots it is merely protecting these areas by more copper sticking to whats already there, this would also make it damn hard to remove properly when you do clean it.

All my barrells have been run in and they are capable of grouping in the 'teens' and occasionally the 'zero's', but would they have performed the same if not run in......farks me

Cheers
KY

[kjd]

No just like you can’t show me proof to the contrary.
But I can see the flaws in your argument. You say that the burrs are "protected" by the copper. Copper must be REAL hard if it can withstand a couple of thousand degrees and anywhere from 40-60000psi to protect those burrs. If anything (and this is me being largely sceptical too) it will just take longer to get rid of those burrs rather then them be protected forever especially since copper is so much softer than steel.

Sorry but a micron or two of copper fouling ain't gonna matter squat when there is that much heat and pressure in the bore.

In saying this you state that you have run in all your barrels I have tried both in field rifles and it makes no difference in fouling and accuracy. Not saying I am more of an authority on the subject but I have observed and practiced both schools of thought and it would seem that the difference between the two is negligible.
You have bullet, gas and powder residue moving at thousands of feet per second and then lots of heat copper will not protect anything IMO.

I'm a firm believer of clean a new rifle before firing and then after every time you use it.
Providing you eventually get the copper off your break in process eventually happens no matter which way you do it.

[Knackers]

Whether it works or not could easily have the theory blown by how good/bad a shot you are

[Kenny]

Knackers,

You are right, there are a lot of variables in regards to this. ability is a big part of it there are others as well like how well the chambering was done, and the steel quality between barrells. caliber used...it could go on and on

kjd,

OK..'protected' was a bad choice of word, I was not meaning 'forever', I think you have already understood what I meant though by saying -

If anything (and this is me being largely sceptical too) it will just take longer to get rid of those burrs rather then them be protected forever especially since copper is so much softer than steel.

As for the heat and pressure, remember the barrell is copping a pizzling too, have you ever looked through a bore scope The bore resembles a dried up creek bed with stress fractures everywhere. I don't think it's the coppers job to 'wear off' the rough spots, it just needs removing to expose them
btw I have experienced that if molly coated bullets are used it does take a lot longer, so that says it does something.

In benchrest you can't be competitive without a tuned load/rifle, the only way to do this is through load development. And it would be damn hard to tune loads in a fouling barrell.

Remember this sport is scored to the tenth of a thou'

It's also a good time for fireforming new cases for the barrell as PPC's are formed from .220 Russian cases, they have a long way to stretch.

Just wondering what is your prefered method of copper removal
And if you have experienced a decline in copper fouling as the barrell ages and more shots are fired through it

Cheers
KY