Juenke Style Bullet sorting machines... any local interest?

[m12vlp]

Back in 2013 I posted up what were my first steps in trying to produce my own Juenke machine equivalent.

It's 7 years on and I feel I've succeeded for my own purposes and even made a couple of others for a few people.

https://youtu.be/onnBF2umJlY

With changes in small scale manufacturing tools for hobbyists ( i.e. 3d printers and hobby cnc's ) and cheaper PCB manufacturing and assembly I'm in a position to actually make them up in small quantities of 10 to 20 at a time.

However I'm hesitant to commit to making them without enough local interest to support the costs. Having 10 of them collecting dust on a shelf at home just seems dumb to me.

Subsequently this post is a bit of a fishing expedition. Expected price would be around $1000AUD.

[trevort]

Have you posted this on ozfclass?
Wider audience of target shooters


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[kickinback]

I would be very interested to run one of these back to back with Jacko’s Juenke.

Well done with the evolution of your design/package and actually getting it finished


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[Camel]

I have no use for one, nor any real interest, other than its another part of shooting, however, congratulations are in order for you work and getting them out into the market. I hope you have great success.

[m12vlp]

Thanks for the encouragement.

Oz-Fclass is a logical option but I avoid it like the plague due to it's owner

[Tony Z]

I know what you mean. I am banned from there for life for continually sparring with Fraser and the Davies clan over the sports rules that should be connected to the international body and that for the future evolution of the sport it made sense to connect that way for self preservation. It may have also had something to do with the fact that i told a few of them they need to enjoy retirement and politely die. Soon and at home preferably, too time consuming during a match.
I simply forgot that this was a group of tea and scones aficionados still embedded in a history of an Omark or mauser using the lengendary 1978 L2A2 ammo supplied by the Army. Then some others that clearly had lingering after effects of cordite fumes from the days of the three oh.

[macca]

Thanks for the encouragement.

Oz-Fclass is a logical option but I avoid it like the plague due to it's owner

I do remember you working on this. Glad to see you get it to this level of product.
Hope you find some sales success.
cheers

[LoneRider]

I know what you mean. I am banned from there for life for continually sparring with Fraser and the Davies clan over the sports rules that should be connected to the international body and that for the future evolution of the sport it made sense to connect that way for self preservation. It may have also had something to do with the fact that i told a few of them they need to enjoy retirement and politely die. Soon and at home preferably, too time consuming during a match.
I simply forgot that this was a group of tea and scones aficionados still embedded in a history of an Omark or mauser using the lengendary 1978 L2A2 ammo supplied by the Army. Then some others that clearly had lingering after effects of cordite fumes from the days of the three oh.

i know what you mean,i think ive been close a few times.

so,what does this thing do and how do you use it ?
never seen one before.

[m12vlp]

so,what does this thing do and how do you use it ?
never seen one before.

Ultimately they measure the presence of copper. More copper measures the same as closer copper so as you rotate the projectile if the reading doesn't change much then the projectile is both even in outer diameter and jacket thickness.

If you get a significant reading then the projectile is out of roundness either on the outside or the inside or both.

I got one berger 6mm once that the micrometer showed was perfectly round on the outside but showed one of the biggest readings. Had to have been something nasty on the inside of that. Wasn't my projectile so didn't cut it open to see.

With F-Class the difference separating out the good ones might net you a few extra X's if everything else is in order. They won't convert 4's to 5's or 5's to 6's.

[Tony Z]

Wrong place.

[The Raven]

Impressive looking design and build quality.


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[LoneRider]

Ah ok,thanks mate


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[Tony Z]

so,what does this thing do and how do you use it ?
never seen one before.

Ultimately they measure the presence of copper. More copper measures the same as closer copper so as you rotate the projectile if the reading doesn't change much then the projectile is both even in outer diameter and jacket thickness.

If you get a significant reading then the projectile is out of roundness either on the outside or the inside or both.

I got one berger 6mm once that the micrometer showed was perfectly round on the outside but showed one of the biggest readings. Had to have been something nasty on the inside of that. Wasn't my projectile so didn't cut it open to see.

With F-Class the difference separating out the good ones might net you a few extra X's if everything else is in order. They won't convert 4's to 5's or 5's to 6's.

I owned a second generation ICC for around 10 years and in that time we tried on numerous occasions to quantify exactly what it measures. I was able to verify an actual jacket thickness variation per units shown on the unit. Generally 5 units was equivalent to 1 ten thousandths of an inch on a 6mm bullet with my unit. How i did that was simple. I got Dave Harrison, the maker of Zero bullets back when he was alive to give me some Corbin jackets, his J4s were near on perfect, so i could find a measurable fault in a jacket, bag it and get him to point up a bullet with the jackets of known error. From there it was on the machine and read off the numbers. So i can confirm that with a short range benchrest bullet with a not too radical ogive profile, the ICC does a good job.

Then it came to long range bullets and sharp ogives and boattails. The ICC cannot successfully segregate a long range match bullet purely on its own. It cannot see most midfolds in an air cavity. It cannot see boattail offset, a major killer of accuracy as i wrote about on here when the first batches of 208 Amaxes hit the stores years back. It cannot under any circumstance, except for the final and few of (third?) generation units, see any eccentricity of point, shank or boattail. Contrary to hearsay, it does not measure roundness which as Sierra stated, yes Sierra tested an ICC and reported on it, it becomes completely irrelevant the moment the bullet meets the throat and swages into the bore. This can be easily proven with a good spinner with a 1/10000 lever dial gauge. Verne Juenke stated very early on, the devise measures jacket wall thickness variation, not thickness itself, or anything else. The wives tails of measuring other things like base to ogive etc etc by where the needle settled to once the bullet was set, was all dismissed. The width of the sensor was too great to make this remotely possible. I confirmed it with actual mechanical measurement on two very extreme bullets. It is fiction. If you google this stuff you will find other stuff. The problem is, the builder, the designer, the guy himself said it really does one job. As was stated, if the needle settles elsewhere, the jacket is being tested. The jacket is tapered. Is the jacket at fault or do i convince myself i found a way of measuring ogive variation? Test away.


With long VLD bullets, the unit was to me, virtually a confirmation of what i had already determined through measurement and testing. Virtually anyone who has one of these units and has owned it for some time will tell you the same story. "The bullets spun really well, but shot like crap."

Those who can recall my test of the very first 208 Amaxes in two HGs will remember how they were spinning at 3 units or less but shot like junk. The issue was the boattail runnout that the ICC cannot and will not detect.
Small, but enough to create issues that with a bullet spinner could be segregated into good and bad and confirmed with groups, good and bad.

With short range BR bullets, the ICC can be a very useful tool. With long range bullets, the most important factor for the group shooter, not score shooter, is being able to reduce the standard deviation of the ballistic coefficient. The ICC cannot ever do that. A bullet spinner of quality certainly can help as can ogive profiling gauges and meplat cutting.

Below is a pic of a run of the mill bullet spinner for those not familiar. Looking at it will give you the idea.

[m12vlp]

I agree with what you say regarding the difficulties of reading long range projectiles.

These units both mine and the originals measure the presence of copper. Put some copper in the presence of the coil and it retards the signal being pumped through the sensor coil due to electromagnetic effects.

put X grams of copper Y milimeters from the sensor and you get a reading. Change it to 2 times X grams or make it Y divided by 2 milimeters and the signal will retard in the same direction. All the sensor see's is more copper blocking it's field of view but cannot make out any more details.

Exactly like the thermal scopes. Big boar far away or small one up close?

[RDavies]

I know what you mean. I am banned from there for life for continually sparring with Fraser and the Davies clan over the sports rules that should be connected to the international body and that for the future evolution of the sport it made sense to connect that way for self preservation.

Was I in this? I have always pushed to follow international rules as much as possible.

Anyway, with regards to the Juenke style machine, I certainly do see enough of a market amongst F class shooters to sell at least a dozen, very likely many more, depending on price, but you likely will need to go on OzFclass to find more of that type of market.