Fliers and deviant shots, long, pics.. Dial up may take time

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Yrrah
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Fliers and deviant shots, long, pics.. Dial up may take time

Post by Yrrah »

Fliers .. deviant pellets that go where they should not .... I have posted this on another forum today but in edited version here. Comments and responses are very welcome.

We often see pellets that impact outside the main group on a target. There are many many reasons for this such as shooter error, wind effects, rifle and pellet incompatibility etc.

My conclusion is the same as was that of the great ballistics researcher Dr Mann 100 years ago and all the real bullet makers who feed the industry now...... When all the 100 other reasons and excuses for projectiles not landing on top of one another at any range have been accounted for..... the unbalanced projectile will still head in a different direction to its well balanced mates.

A perfect pellet may have its flight upset by many things.

However when the pellet itself is not balanced it will not fly to the same point of impact as others. It is a true "flier". You can do nothing about it. Nor can you eliminate it no matter how many machine rests, vices, voodoos or experts' help you employ, or whether you search out a draft free indoor range or warehouse in which to shoot.

My own experiments have involved groups shot in still air; shot in wind; shot in thunder storms; shot with weight matched pellets; visually inspected pellets; pellets with grooves filed out of the head or the skirt or both head and skirt on the same side and opposite sides; with the die marks determined with a magnifier and then oriented the same in chambering or at different points around the clock in chambering. Some groups have even been shot through thin sheets of paper placed at 20, 50 and 70+ yards to see if the group patterns were the same at all yardages. It was all done a hundred years ago with lead bullets and with the new jacketed 30-06 ( 1906 ). ..... Here is some food for thought based on my experimentation with air rifle shooting ( Excalibre and BSA Hornet with JSB Exact .22 pellets ).

Here is what appears to be a perfect pellet, or at least what you can see of it.
Image
But is it perfect .. No. Five like it, shot well in excellent conditions, be they calm or consistently windy at the time of firing, will print approximately a MOA at 100 yards from my two rifles. However the group will be roundish with a hollow centre or have most impacts touching.

Here are examples:
One with most touching, one hollow: Both at 100 yards. JSB Exacts.

Image

Another hollow group at 150 yards. It would have been hollow at 100 yards, hollow at 75 yards and probably a "one holer" at 40 yards:

Image

Here are examples of pellets that will be fliers regardless of what else may impinge on their flight:
This one will set off in a different direction to others. It will leave the confines of the rifling in a trajectory that its off-centre Centre of Gravity dictates according to the spiral that the C of G was doing in its travel up the barrel.. It will also take a secondary spiral through the air as it oscillates and is steered into that spiral by the oncoming air stream.
Image

This one, at 5 o'clock in the magazine, has a blob of lead in the inside of its cavity at 9 o'clock in the pic. It too will be a flier as for the one in the pic above.
Image

Here is what most probably was a wind affected lateral deviant ( but it may have been an unbalanced pellet, or both ). 125 yards JSB Exacts.
Image

Here is a possible example of unmatched weight causing low shots ( but don't discount coincidental unbalanced fliers, MV difference or a dozen other reasons ). 100 yards.
Image

Here we have maybe eight excellent pellets but not perfect, one perhaps perfect in the centre of the circular group and one deviant affected by wind or imbalance or both or one of the other 100 reasons. ( Red dots denote the PsOI of 4 sighters on another target ). 118 yards.
Image

And if any are still reading this, here are two "groups" shot in a stiff variable wind. The top right deliberately shot at different wind strengths. but from the same direction. The bottom left, a 5 shot group shot picking "same" conditions when the wind was strong. ( different PsOA for the two groups ): 100 yards.
Image
In summary....... You can work to eliminate 99 of the 100 reasons for deviant shots, but you will never get rid of 100% of the deviants without perfect pellets.

Powder bench rest shooters routinely shoot sub 0.20 inch 100 yard groups. In those groups there are still fliers, deviant bullets with inherent imperfections.
In my case, by careful inspection, weighing, measuring, and other methods not described here as yet, my group sizes have reduced, on average at 100 yards, from about 1.40 inches to 1.15 inches. The best have shrunk from 1.0 inches to less than 0.75 inches.....

Is it worth it? Well yes and no. I am research oriented so get satisfaction from that. We can learn a lot from analyzing targets, manipulating pellets and protocol.
But now that I have satisfied my curiosity to some extent and proven, to myself at any rate, that old Dr Mann had it right back in 1906, then I don't worry about that which I cannot control and maybe I shoot a little more relaxed too :D .................. Kind regards, Harry.
Last edited by Yrrah on Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Predator

Post by Predator »

i love your posts mate!
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Rabbitz
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Post by Rabbitz »

So the obvious test would be to sort out a set of thirteen matching pellets and two similar but known to be flawed pellets.

Shoot four matched and one flawed in random order. Is there just one flier?

Shoot four matched and one flawed in a known order, is there a flier and was it the known flawed one?

Shoot the remaining five.

The final group is the control. Does it have any fliers? If so then the results for the first two groups should be discounted. However the other two groups are to prove if the known flawed pellet was in fact the cause.

It would actually be more meaningful to shoot a series of groups in the above combinations.
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Yrrah
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Problem is to get a non flawed experimental design..

Post by Yrrah »

Not so simple. The other 99 variables conspire to confound the issue. That aside, the effect of imbalance and off centre-axis C of G can be seen in this experiment. It is one I have done a number of times:

With a little three cornered file, nick the skirts cross wise just ahead of the thin edge to remove a little lead. Fill the nick with something lighter than lead if you feel it introduces another variable.

Shoot a 4 shot control group with what you feel are matched and otherwise perfect pellets, weighed etc., at say 25 yards.

Shoot another group of four with the nick located at precisely 12 0,clock when introduced into the chamber.

Shoot a third group with one nicked pellet chambered with the nick at 12 o'clock; one at 3 o'clock; one at 6 o'clock and one at 9 o'clock.

Repeat the process as many times as you feel is required for validity and reliability.

Compare the results of what you see.

Unfortunately you cannot be sure that the pellets chosen as "perfect" or best, do not in fact have microscopic air pockets ( I have cut up enough and inspected them with a magnifier to convince me of the presence of such air pockets ). Then there is the manufacturer's bane of alloyed pellets/ bullets having more dense areas biasing the C of G to one side or the other. Another interesting exercise is to inspect the skirt cavities for die marks. I have recently found slight off centre stampings from die plungers which no doubt have fractionally biased the C of G location. the pellets are beautifully made and weight tolerances are very good. ( They group to 1.5 inches at 100 yards in good air. the groups are somewhat hollow ).......

There are other confounding issues too. The trajectory error induced by the C of G location, at other than the central axis of the pellet, is independent of any further error brought about by in-flight instability from a gyrating pellet. This second error can in fact either compound the first error or conversely it can tend to cancel it and bring the pellet back towards the centre of the group ...... It is a "flier" in either case but masquerading as a good pellet in the latter...........

There is a lot of satisfaction in experimenting with the humble air rifle and we all should do at least a little of it....... I am now fortunate to be retired and have some time to fiddle while Rome burns ....... Thank you for your thoughtful response and Kind regards, Harry.
astro

Post by astro »

excellent information Harry......

so now i know why i shoot like shit....it's the pellets.... :wink:

cheers
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Post by RayG »

I agree with Astro! After reading Harry's excellent information am definitely an Astro type of shooter myself. But aren't I lucky now I have the the errant pellet to blame as well.
Cheers all RayG
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Post by HAIR BEAR »

Gday Yrrah
how are you ?
mate that is very good reading there :D , could you inculed the actual loading of a pellet to imbalance and off centre axis , as in going in crooked , and the uneven pressure of the pellet skirts to the rifling ?
would more gyroscopic force (say ribbed pellet) inproved the imbalance ?
actually would a ribbed pellet make the actual pellet spin more so to say ?
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Yrrah
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Hi HB.............

Post by Yrrah »

I'm fine thanks HB ... so long as I keep waking up in the morning :)

.."could you include the actual loading of a pellet to imbalance and off centre axis , as in going in crooked , and the uneven pressure of the pellet skirts to the rifling ?".... I think that's a given HB. But I would include it in the other "99" reasons a pellet may finish in the wrong place. It is something which you have some control over, though mis-match of pellets to rifle chamber can be an issue. ...... I was limiting things to the one factor that will remain as a reason for fliers when all else is taken care of.

As for "ribbed pellets"... well they are generally made in a different way and generally are not as precise and so may suffer from wider manufacturing tolerances. That having been written, one of the best heavyweight pellets available seems to be the Korean Dae Sung, 28 gr in .22. They look as rough as guts, but they generally shoot very well in higher powered PCPs.

The rifling twist rate initially determines spin rate for any pellet. Down range the BC of the pellet determines its rate of linear velocity loss. As angular velocity of spin does not decay as fast or in proportion to linear velocity loss, spin rate per unit of range traversed tends to increase. This can and does make in-flight imbalance problems worse. Classic example is Crow Magnum .22s which are OK for the first 30 yards ( even though they generally make elliptical holes in targets from the first few feet ) but just get worse the further they go. In strong winds you will see them spiral out. For some reason the .20 cal Crow Magnums do a lot better.

Kind regards, Harry.
astro

Post by astro »

harry...FYI

http://www.arld1.com/

i have posted this previously and don't know if you have seen it

cheers
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Post by HAIR BEAR »

G'day Yrrah
good to hear you are doing well , like the forum name , bit backward , nice idea :D
taught the loading would go to the 99 other things ,
but i reckon , that barrel rifleing would not effect the pellets travel ,for the frist few inch,s on higher pressure type A/Rs ,
reason : the inital release of pressure would push the pellet foward , with no real seating in rifling ,till air pressure opens up the skirt then we start the pellet spinning ?
but how to prove it ?
or have you try this out ?


sorry if i am wasting you time , its just a taught

thanks
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Yrrah
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Post by Yrrah »

If I read you correctly HB, I think these few pics of fired pellets and an air bullet will show that there is no slippage in the initial rifling engagement.

Image

Image

Image


These have been deliberately fired into teased out raw sheep's fleece which is soft and builds up to bind the pellets and stop them without any damage. I developed the technique for the purpose of examining pellets that have been shot with all the forces and dynamics involved rather than just pushing them through the barrel with a rod.

Lots of things can be discovered by examining shot pellets. For example the Pyramydair bullet of 30 grains ( a USA bullet ) basically rides the bore but it does obturate from the punch it gets in my rifle. Here is a normal air bullet and one that has been shot. It can be seen that the flat base of the normal bullet is well indented in the shot bullet. Again it can be seen from the rifling marks that the bullet has not skidded in the initial travel in the rifling - marks are sharp:

Image

Kind regards, Harry.
Last edited by Yrrah on Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kjd »

Harry the air bullets are interesting, how do you find they go in the excally and what sort of BC's are you playing with?
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Post by HAIR BEAR »

G'day Yrrah
yes you are right there , do like the differant rifling depth on the round head pellets ! it really does show the inconsistyof pellet strucuture ,
and the lead deformation on the skirt !

The air bullet , now there is a interesting pellet !! how does it shoot ? is it more consisant then the diablo style pellet ?

thanks
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Yrrah
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Here is a fairly typical group at 50 metres Keith....

Post by Yrrah »

Here is a fairly typical group at 50 metres Keith.... 5 shots. The US quarter is pretty much the size of our 10c piece. I shot it a couple of years back at the Kempsey pistol club range.

Image

These bullets have very high friction in the bore and actually only came out at 25 fpe compared to 28 fpe with Exacts at the time. They stabilize well as seen from the holes. I have not tested their BC. I only had a few. I have just a few left for other comparative tests. Not a real goer I think and as they were made by Pelletman in the USA and that Firm seems to be no longer trading, they may not be available. A US shooter sent them to me. ......... Kind regards, Harry.
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Yrrah
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Hair Bear.. I haven't got the hang of how this forum format

Post by Yrrah »

Hair Bear.. I haven't got the hang of how this forum format works yet, but with that particular air bullet from the USA the answer is no Please see my response to Keith above. ... Kind regards, Harry.

PS How do I directly answer someone if another / other post responses have got in between?
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