dave wrote:kjd, totally agree if im shooting heaps id go a stock 223 or 204, but seen as i dont shoot nearly as much as i like i dont mind spending the time doing it. Although could just buy bucket loads of cheap 223 ammo and just go plinking i guess too
The questions I'd be asking myself are:
By getting a wildcat will I significantly improving Velocity and or accuracy?
Will it cost significantly more for not much benefit?
Am I better off spending the extra money on ammo and practicing to achieve the same result in the field?
Is it really worth gaining x amount fps and maybe not being as accurate?
If it were me I'd buy a my self a tikka or ruger varminter in 204 or 223 and I'd go out shoot and have fun. I can imagine it would be nice having a custom rifle but I can't see the value in it. I do want to get a new barrel and stock for my M70 though.
If you can afford it, get it dont listen to any detractors. Listen to any poster who has had something built and see if they regret it. Its like if you can afford a porsche and people tell you dont because a commodore will work. Sure it will work, we all know that but some people like to drive porsches.
Keith there is no fireforming for 20 practical brass. 20 Tac brass forming is supposedly a 2 step affair but most users are able to chamber and fire after one forming die pass. You only form once
Now if I ever get off my ass and do the load development for the JAB 20 I could tell you how easy that is to form and the dies cost next to nothing to convert from the original set of 223 dies
The reason for going a 20 prac over a 204 would be that you can use lapua brass- even though I havent yet nor do I see the need to as its shooting so well. The other bonus for me is that I know alot of pro cullers around and they give me 223 brass for free. At these rates, and doing the necking down and case prep it equals the same as paying for a 204 to me. There is something cool about having a rifle that is different to the rest. Sure it will do the same thing a 204 can, but thats what semi custom builds are all about- doing something different. Everyone on here seems to like doing something different, whether its a custom action, tactical builds, or fancy calibres so yes as Trev said, if you can afford it, "why not" is just as good a question as "why"
To form a 20 practical round.
First off get a set of standard 223 redding type S dies and a 233 and 225 bushing. You may also need the 20 cal decapping stem but as Trevor T informed me the other day, just stay with the standard stem and unscrew the ball expander. I do full case prep on my rem brass. Then its just a pass through with the 233 bushing, then another with the 225 bushing. Hey presto a 20 prac case. Prime, charge and seat the bullet. The plain 223 seater works fine.
I made an emtpy unfired case to start with and gave that to the gunsmith to use as a gauge to chamber with. He has set it up so the bolt handle just starts to feel slightly stiff at the bottom of the down (locking) stroke of the bolt. I used the full length die and seater set, so yes I will be FL sizing each time, but because my custom chamber was done to suit it, everything is pretty snug in there. I belive its been one of the keys to the instant accuracy and I will be making all my rifle chambers like this from now on. If you want to standard chamber it, just use a standard set of 223 go and no go gauges.
I purchased the reamer myself from Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge. Its the reamer Warren B initially designed up for use in an AR15 with the almost nil amount of freebore. While it means I have to seat the bullets down a bit, its going to be handy in the future if there is some throat erosion (shouldnt be much as its only burning 24.5gr of powder), I wont have any trouble seating it further out to reach the lands.
After I have moved house and things settle down, I will get out and print some groups and do some proper load development with the recommended optimum powder reloder 10x- 24.5gr of it should see things in the 3800fps bracket and thats going to be making for some flat out foxy fun.
I also have emailed PT&G about buying a 20 Practical reamer. Can I ask how much you paid for yours as they are yet to reply to my email, only sent it yesterday though.
trevort wrote:If you can afford it, get it dont listen to any detractors. Listen to any poster who has had something built and see if they regret it. Its like if you can afford a porsche and people tell you dont because a commodore will work. Sure it will work, we all know that but some people like to drive porsches.
Keith there is no fireforming for 20 practical brass. 20 Tac brass forming is supposedly a 2 step affair but most users are able to chamber and fire after one forming die pass. You only form once
Now if I ever get off my ass and do the load development for the JAB 20 I could tell you how easy that is to form and the dies cost next to nothing to convert from the original set of 223 dies
If you can afford a porche by all means buy a porche if you want one.
What I wouldn't do though is inherit a pain in the ass for not much benefit. Sure if all you have to do is FL size then fine but if you are neck turning and fireforming etc etc just to get the right brass and there is no significant benefit whether that be accuracy of velocity then why bother?
Speaking of which out of 20 prac 20 tac 204 ruger and any others can you please rank them in velocity for a 39/40gn pill please?
Though I think the 20-250 AI is a winner haha just read they were getting 4000fps with a 50gn berger and 4600fps with a 40gn pill unbelievable. Bet you the barrel doesn't last long though! http://www.customriflesandcartridges.co ... rticle.htm
Keith, stuffing round with the brass is a hobby (some might say an obsession) in itself. You either get it or you dont. I have absolutely zero engineering/scientific skills and no logic to back me up but each time I look at a case I cant help thinking what changes I could make to it. For what benefit? none probably, just because I can.
Tight custom chamber and quality tube, you would be hard pressed to find a significant velocity difference in any of those cases.
But right this one down. You made me re think the JAB 20 and I am going to try some lighter pills in it. It is a rabbit rifle after all and doesnt need to be ultra long range.
My understanding of 20 cal cartridges, fastest to slowest.
20BR
204, 20 practical, 20 tactical- all should be about the same I reckon.
20/222
20VT
20 Ackley hornet
A 20-250 would be up around the 20BR i would guess.
No way I would bother with neck turning for a hunting gun, but in competitive BR then I can see the value. I do think a 20VT with an 8 twist and 55gr bergers could well be a very potent little BR rifle.
As you can see, 2207 is a fairly popular powder, which I may try if I cant get anything else to perform. But it may be a whisker too warm for my liking. 2206H is my current powder but im running at mild pressures. Reloader 10x is apparently where its at and I know Owen and Jeff here both are raving about it in thier 204's. I will make up some loads on sunday at a mates place since Im too impatient to wait until my reloading bench is set up.
I'll second what Trevort said re that tinkering with brass adds another dimension to the sport/pastime of being a shooter. If you like tinkering with shiny metal things then perhaps a wildcat cartridge is something you'd enjoy. It might even help develop your mechanical aptitude as it seems to be doing for Trevort. It's something gun related you can do at home in times that you can't go shooting.
I've got a Sako action getting a .221 Fireball barrel fitted sometime soon (Shane has the bits, it's in the queue ! ) and I'll be sure to post all about it when it's finished. I'll be stuffing around making the stock from a Richards blank, and bedding it, stuffing around some more forming brass and neck turning and I'll enjoy doing it and get a bit more enjoyment out of using it than I do with my factory rifles. Just like I do with the custom fishing rods I've built for myself, they don't catch more fish but they are more enjoyable to use.
In a year or two I won't even have any factory rifles - some will be in standard cartridges, but a couple will be wildcats.
I can't afford a Porsche but I can afford a couple of custom rifles
I have 2 20-223's, the first on a Tikka 595 (ex ogre) the second on a Sako 461 with a faster twist Walther barrel. They both love 2206 and 40g V-Maxes.
They were made with a 204R reamer run 95 thou short and brass is easily formed by running 223 cases through a similarly shortened 204FLS die.Load and shoot.More practical than the Practical! My 20-250 is not so easy with lots of tedious steps to form brass.
Has any body seen any 55g Bergers available here?
Cheers Dugald
PS Those interested in 20 cal loading should get hold of a copy of Todd Kindler's Terrific Twenties manual through The Woodchuck Den. Huge amount of information.
trevort wrote:Keith, stuffing round with the brass is a hobby (some might say an obsession) in itself. You either get it or you dont. I have absolutely zero engineering/scientific skills and no logic to back me up but each time I look at a case I cant help thinking what changes I could make to it. For what benefit? none probably, just because I can.
Tight custom chamber and quality tube, you would be hard pressed to find a significant velocity difference in any of those cases.
But right this one down. You made me re think the JAB 20 and I am going to try some lighter pills in it. It is a rabbit rifle after all and doesnt need to be ultra long range.
Neck Turning, fireforming, building little boats inside bottles. . all the same to me haha. I develop what I feel is an accurate load then go at shoot it I guess thats where you and I differ
kjd wrote:
If it were me I'd buy a my self a tikka or ruger varminter in 204 or 223 and I'd go out shoot and have fun. I can imagine it would be nice having a custom rifle but I can't see the value in it.
Hey Keith the thread is about a blokes project rifle that's he's finally got ready to shoot and he's sharing the results of his efforts, going out to shoot and have fun. How about not being such a wet blanket !!
Nice rifle Brad, I bet you'll be enjoying it for a long time, and ready in plenty of time for summer too ! I have the same action waiting to be built into something, I wish somebody would make spare mags for them !
