Importance of rifle build components

[trevort]

I didn't start this topic to be a shit slinging match, nor a dick measuring contest, however if you two want to go that way, by all means do, but maybe put up a few comments that may be helpful to the discussion ?

Mark there isnt a lot of point discussing this with you, your mind is made up, besides we aren't talking about the same thing. I'm talking about benchrest when building accurate rifles is discussed.

A factory tikka will deliver more varmint accuracy than many are good enought to take advantage of

[Camel]

Mark what is it you wish to do? Varmint gun? Or competition gun?
If its competition then its the three Bs. Bullets, barrels and brass. In that order. Then you build around the bullet, because bullets win matches.
Pick your bullet. Pick the barrel you favor or can get. Then get the brass to launch it at the speed you want and that can survive multiple firings ie Lapua, RWS or Norma. The rest is junk.

As a fellow 25 cal devotee.....
108 JLK 25 or 110 Fowler
10 twist Hart
308 Lapua brass formed into 25 Souper.

The above is an unknown quantity i should have tried in competition years ago. The 25 Souper is the most accurate 25 cal i ever saw of the half dozen or so 25 cals i have done. The 25 x 55 Swede Imp was the next best. The Souper was kinder to the barrel and was the most efficient but i would use it simply because 308 brass is everywhere. As are Souper dies. (Simplex)
Then you build around that.

I have some bullets i can swing your way to get you going.
Cheers.

Thanks for the input Tony, the idea of a 25cal target rifle is still fermenting away.

[Tony Z]

Posted but disappeared. So another try.

Mistit i had two 25/06s where both had serious accuracy issues that were later solved through the use of magnum primers. CCI 250s and Fed 215s. It is a fickle cartridge that needs a magnum primer with anything slower than 2209. Maybe even with 2209.

The Soupers i had for field and target use were both the polar opposite of the 25/06s. They shot everything well. With bullets up to 100 grains it matched or exceeded the 25/06 probably because 2209 was the perfect burn rate for the cartridge. 100 grain bullets got to 3300 fps and the 120s were at a neat 3000.
Accuracy was outstanding where it was difficult to screw it up as long as you used a quality bullet. By accurate i mean seriously small groups limited by user ability. It was like you ran a OCW test and looked at ten groups and tossed a coin to pick one. Very rare in a cartridge of that size.
Thinking about it it is a cartridge capable of hitting Corvin way out with a 75 grainer or smashing swine with the good old Nosler 120 grain Solid Base as i did often. A very good cartridge that is seriously overlooked.

[MISSED]

http://www.6mmbr.com/actions.html

http://www.recoilweb.com/rem-700-custom ... 09106.html

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/04/2 ... actions-2/

Interesting reading

[trevort]

Andrew those three articles all seem to indicate the action is pretty important in a rifle built for extreme accuracy.

Mark I used to read loads of stuff like that. I even had a subscription to precision shooting magazine for a while until deciding I already knew more than I could use due to limited skill. many of the articles where written by experimenters who tested their theories. I can't remember any of it now ( the one that sticks in my head is Bill Calfee progressively cutting the threads off and rechambering a 22 barrel to see what it did to accuracy which has nothing to do with this topic). My "belief" that a strong and true action is essential to benchrest accuracy came from reading all those type articles. I was slightly trying to wind you up when I said it wasn't my job to educate you but there is reams of research on actions on the net if you can be bothered trawling.

And if we were out in a paddock and I had a my trued Remington or stiller or whateverand you had your nasty zasty and we had one shot at a fox head at 300 to save our lives, you would be making the shot. But I'll back myself at 500 fly or 100yd br

[mistit]

Posted but disappeared. So another try.

Mistit i had two 25/06s where both had serious accuracy issues that were later solved through the use of magnum primers. CCI 250s and Fed 215s. It is a fickle cartridge that needs a magnum primer with anything slower than 2209. Maybe even with 2209.

The Soupers i had for field and target use were both the polar opposite of the 25/06s. They shot everything well. With bullets up to 100 grains it matched or exceeded the 25/06 probably because 2209 was the perfect burn rate for the cartridge. 100 grain bullets got to 3300 fps and the 120s were at a neat 3000.
Accuracy was outstanding where it was difficult to screw it up as long as you used a quality bullet. By accurate i mean seriously small groups limited by user ability. It was like you ran a OCW test and looked at ten groups and tossed a coin to pick one. Very rare in a cartridge of that size.
Thinking about it it is a cartridge capable of hitting Corvin way out with a 75 grainer or smashing swine with the good old Nosler 120 grain Solid Base as i did often. A very good cartridge that is seriously overlooked.

Cheers tony

[Camel]

Posted but disappeared. So another try.

Mistit i had two 25/06s where both had serious accuracy issues that were later solved through the use of magnum primers. CCI 250s and Fed 215s. It is a fickle cartridge that needs a magnum primer with anything slower than 2209. Maybe even with 2209.

The Soupers i had for field and target use were both the polar opposite of the 25/06s. They shot everything well. With bullets up to 100 grains it matched or exceeded the 25/06 probably because 2209 was the perfect burn rate for the cartridge. 100 grain bullets got to 3300 fps and the 120s were at a neat 3000.
Accuracy was outstanding where it was difficult to screw it up as long as you used a quality bullet. By accurate i mean seriously small groups limited by user ability. It was like you ran a OCW test and looked at ten groups and tossed a coin to pick one. Very rare in a cartridge of that size.
Thinking about it it is a cartridge capable of hitting Corvin way out with a 75 grainer or smashing swine with the good old Nosler 120 grain Solid Base as i did often. A very good cartridge that is seriously overlooked.

Now the novelty has worn off, I had been thinking of running a Souper reamer up the arse of the 25 Camel barrel, but I will have to have a good think about that one.

[trevort]

Now the novelty has worn off, I had been thinking of running a Souper reamer up the arse of the 25 Camel barrel, but I will have to have a good think about that one.

I'm not sure whether this is funny or not

[MISSED]

Now the novelty has worn off, I had been thinking of running a Souper reamer up the arse of the 25 Camel barrel, but I will have to have a good think about that one.

I'm not sure whether this is funny or not

Laugh Trevor I did then the mental image

I had a 303/25 a 25/06 x2 and have often thought about a Roberts but after reading PO Ackleys thoughts I now think a 25 Souper AI may be a better balanced cartridge.

[Tony Z]

Guys i must clarify. While i say 25 Souper, i do not mean the 308 necked down with standard 20 degree shoulder. The Souper i did was an improved case with 40 degree shoulder. My bad.

[mistit]

Guys i must clarify. While i say 25 Souper, i do not mean the 308 necked down with standard 20 degree shoulder. The Souper i did was an improved case with 40 degree shoulder. My bad.

where do we get such a reamer tony

[Target]

Hmmm barrel and action should be one and two with the gunsmiths ability to fit them together with the bore perfectly square to the bolt face third and then bedding job and trigger


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Exactly what Trevor said!

How can you put the action last?

Glenn

Well, did see a Mauser 98 shoot a possible today.

One could say "the nut behind the butt", is more important.

So I have read all the comments that seem to imply that a custom or trued action is a 'must' for an accurate rifle, and will add my 2c worth.

The barrel is the main part, and yes, it must be fitted straight to the action - but that does not mean the action has to be some big $ custom product. Sure, its nice, but not important. One of the top gunsmiths around made the comment to me, that the action only holds the barrel and keeps the cartridge in the chamber.

The rifle that I have been shooting for the past few years in FClass (308 F Std) has a madco barrel, a stock that has been modified to track straight and true with front and rear bag riders, a good scope, have worked the trigger, have got the action bedded into the stock, and I spend a lot of time on developing my loads and handloading for each shoot. This rifle shoots regular possibles (60 from 60) and has shot a 60 with 9 supers in the past, and won the club comp last year against many other custom rifles, including Barnards, Stolle Panda, trued and sleeved Remington's, omarks and the others.
The action used is a non trued, off the shelf Howa 1500. at short range, it is capable of 1/4 to 1/2 min groups, and regularly shoots close to 1/2 min 10 shot groups at long distance (300 to 800). You do not need a high end $2,000 action - sure its nice, but its not the top couple of items of a custom rifle build, and certainly behind barrel, smithing and stock.
I have recently upgraded to a higher end custom rifle on a top notch action, and a stock from a well known maker, and it is maybe a little more accurate,but not by any considerable margin. It is certainly nicer and smoother than my old rifle, and it recoils and tracks in the bags better. For what its worth my old rifle, with 5,000 rounds down the barrel is still shooting very well for its new owner.


Further:
A good rifle, on the best action, with the best barrel and top notch smithing, will never shoot well if the person shooting it cant drive that rifle properly, or cant develop loads for that rifle and then reload consistently. I have seen it time and time again on the range, $ cant always buy scores.

[Camel]

Good insight Target, thanks for your input.

Sounds pretty similar to the rifle that the gunsmith I was talking to has for his 14 year old daughter, only her's is in 223, she regularly kicks arse at F class shoots.

[trevort]

Target, totally agree with your last comment but at least I lose with a good looking rifle


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[justjeff]

Guys,

I have several times chewed it over with TZ. The action issue comes down to two things, it must hold the case perpendicular to the chamber, and the bolt face should remain that way during firing. Everything else is just marketing. If you need a fast action, that is another issue, but the basics remain, bullet first, barrel second, then brass.

Example being my HG. In the current cartridge, to get velocity, I have to hurt the brass. This means the extraction upsets the gun in the bag, slowing the string. By moving to a bigger, lazier case, I upset the gun less, allowing a faster action. Look at what is your most important issue, address that, then move to the next.

Jeff