shotguns explained?

Talk about your Varmint Rifles and other firearms here!
Peter O
.22 WMR
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Post by Peter O »

I'd agree with you on every point except effective range, and on that point I'd perhaps suggest that you started shooting shotties a long time ago?
Are you trying to tell me I am to old to know what I have experienced.

Ahh well it had to come some time I suppose, I had best give up and enter a nursing home or something silly old bugger I am, what would I have to offer.
Something about clean miss or clean kill keeps poping into my head, maybe its all the lead shot I swallowed.
zzsstt

Post by zzsstt »

Peter O wrote:Are you trying to tell me I am to old to know what I have experienced.
:lol:

Before you ride your Gopher (slowly) off in to the sunset.......

"Clean miss or clean kill"?

So are you defining your additional effective range as accuracy based or killing power? As I said in my post, if you are talking about "killing power", then there is no reason why this should be the case given modern cartridges, though it used to be so with older ones - hence my comment about you perhaps starting shooting a long time ago.

But accuracy, as I said, may be affected given the longer barrel swinging better and giving more rib to aim along. However that would not be specific to a fixed choke gun, which is why I assumed you to be talking about killing power.
Peter O
.22 WMR
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:19 pm
Location: Southern NSW

Post by Peter O »

So are you defining your additional effective range as accuracy based or killing power? As I said in my post, if you are talking about "killing power", then there is no reason why this should be the case given modern cartridges, though it used to be so with older ones - hence my comment about you perhaps starting shooting a long time ago.
Both, I am saying I get good clean kills with tight chokes at greater ranges than with my 28" gun using the same chokes.

Why do you assume all of us use factory ammo and fast burning powders and light loads. Don't tell me, because we are talking to a new bloke thats not likely to use big loads with slow burning powders, so my mistake.

I guess I long for the days when we could get powders that would give you great range and versatility with the humble shotgun and a fixed choke gun would have been more than capable of taking birds with authority out to 70m given some one pointing it straight and a good length of barrel.
Thankfully I still have some limited supplies of old powders .
I still have my 32" barrels but no longer have a gun with a 36" barrel but boy did it kill and it shot small patterns too. Now days I choke the shit out of my 32" (xtra full) barrels to achieve the same thing but its not as effective.

You sound sold on the new fast powders and light loads and thats fair enough but some of us old blokes still like to feel the gun go off and take birds and rabbits at a bit of distance it saves juice in the Gopher battery if we can shoot em all from one spot. :wink:
zzsstt

Post by zzsstt »

Peter O wrote:Why do you assume all of us use factory ammo and fast burning powders and light loads. Don't tell me, because we are talking to a new bloke thats not likely to use big loads with slow burning powders,
Bingo!

And actually I didn't assume anything about what you were shooting, which is why my first reply to you did mention old slow burning powders. The only assumption I made was, as you suggested above, that a new bloke would be using a modern gun and current cartridges, and therefore any decision should be made on information relevant to that scenario. Bugger, you said not to tell you that...... :)

Now tell me, since we are talking old slow powders, is it possible to buy "black powder" 12g cartridges in Australia these days? I have never replaced the shotguns I sold when I moved to Australia, but have recently seen a couple of nice old fashioned side by sides, but one is not nitro proof......
Peter O
.22 WMR
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:19 pm
Location: Southern NSW

Post by Peter O »

Now tell me, since we are talking old slow powders, is it possible to buy "black powder" 12g cartridges in Australia these days? I have never replaced the shotguns I sold when I moved to Australia, but have recently seen a couple of nice old fashioned side by sides, but one is not nitro proof......
You will have to roll your own just like the rest of us old timers and lovers of lead shot. I know of noone importing black cartridges and would think safety restrictions would make this very difficult. If you buy the old SxS your gonna have to load your own I think.

Some of the slow smokeless powders are still available if you look hard but I have not had to do that for a while now. And these do require more than 18" barrels to work well.
Hell I even used to get unburnt powder out the end of my 28" guns with Nobles 80, speaking of which I would love a few dozen tins of that stuff. I think N70 is too quick and its the slowest ADI make.

Small percentages in shot string density and retained energy make a great deal of difference at longer ranges and although the modern powders are good they are more and more being aimed at the trap shooting market and less and less at hunting.

The charge weights are being reduced more and more and a fast burning powder is needed to achieve their aims but I want to hunt with real loads and decent long range performance and the modern cartridges just don't do it as well as they should.
I used 28 gm factory loaded shells for the first time a couple of years ago and I guess they are OK to break clays but I find them shit when it comes to killing power.
I see now they are going for 24gm loads is everyone turning into a wuss or something.
Then there is the advent of steel shot and it various incarnations and its inherent density problems. Bismuth has helped a bit but is incredibly expensive and often difficult to purchase and still not a patch on lead.

Buy the SxS,s anyway they need a good home and someone to look after them in their dotage.
Cheers
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GIJ
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Post by GIJ »

Back to you 17hmr,

I picked the 28' and my mate, who is a lot bigger then me picked the 30'. Both on the back of the ute chasing foxes we can't pick the differance but I like the lighter gun.

The guy with the 20' coach gun was driving because they are useless in the open. The ground explodes in dust and the bunny runs out of the middle unscathed then we clean it up with the longer guns.
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Dr G
300 Win Mag
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Post by Dr G »

zzsstt and peter O

I would be interested in your comments on shotgun fit. the second firearm i ever had was an old singlebarrel 12g that was loaned to me as a kid I just made it up as i went along and usually came home with some hares and or wood ducks from our place. The second and last shottie i had was a winchester pump action that I used a lot on roos (quantified that this was a long time ago before their were restrictions on how you shot something) goats ducks rabbits and just about anything else that came in range. This obviously went with the buy back.

I have been considering getting an u/o for a while but i have absolutely no idea on what i should look for when measuring a shotgun up for fit. I suspect that subconciously i do have some idea but seeing it written down would be of real benifet to me.

cheers
Peter O
.22 WMR
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:19 pm
Location: Southern NSW

Post by Peter O »

DrG
your post sounds very familiar to a lot of us. I am fortunate to have a D class licence so all things were not lost to me but many opportunities are still denied.

Fit is not all that easy to explain until you pick up a gun that does and then you will think wow that feels right.
Zzsstt touched on it earlier when he mentioned the gun coming to your shoulder from the ready position without effort or snagging on your chest. many shooters, shoot guns that are close but few have their guns fitted by a professional.
There are all sorts of formula's that are supposed to give you the correct
length of stock and height of comb etc but I have never had one work for me.
My best fitting gun is an Ebar SxS and my granddads 1882 greener comes a close second but others don't like the English style stocks on these guns.
Basically you should stand with your feet apart and your toes making a V with your target in the area of the open V, pick an object as a aim point and without moving your eyes bring the gun to your shoulder from the ready. If the gun comes to your shoulder easy and you find yourself looking along the sights without having to bob your head or twist you neck the fit is good.
Your shoulders should be relaxed and not have to move to accommodate the gun, if the stock is short you will have to pull the gun into your shoulder or cock your shoulder forward, the reverse will be true for a stock that is too long. Shooting a gun with the wrong length of pull will tire you quickly. A good shooting jacket or vest is a must to ensure a snag free mount of the gun.
The sight picture should be good without the need to raise or lower the muzzle of the gun, these adjustments are the areas I think should be left to someone who knows what they are doing as a small alteration can make a huge difference. I find my pump guns are rarly on my shoulder and so never worry about fit with those much the same as the coach guns.
My Miroku U/O is a poor fit because even though it comes to my shoulder nice it tends to make me cant the gun to get a sight picture and needs the stock adjusted, it also belts me in the cheek when taking shots directly overhead, I will have to get it altered. I have the same issues with Beretta's. I, like Zzsstt love English style shotguns especially SxS's they are like beautiful women, tall, narrow waisted,with genarous curves and feel wonderful and exciting in your hands.
I am sure Zzsstt can add to this for you.
Cheers
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Dr G
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Post by Dr G »

cheers Pete, much appreciated
zzsstt

Post by zzsstt »

OK, this may be quite long, unlike my usual short and concise posts :wink:

What follows is classical shotgun shooting, originating from field shooting. I am quite certain that some olympic coach somewhere has a more modern theory, but this one will still work. This is for right handers, so reverse it all if you're left handed!

First the stance and mount. Stand with feet about 12inches apart, then transfer almost all your weight to the left foot. Position your chin directly over your left toes (if it's not there already). Your right foot should still be flat on the ground, if the heel has lifted bring your right foot closer to your left until you can keep it flat. This is the basic body position, and you will shoot "straight" shots along a line projected from your right heel through your left toes. If you try this you will find you can rotate at the hips about the same amount on both sides. Your feet never move.

Next hold the gun vertically, muzzle upwards, in your right hand - fingers off triggers!. Raise your left hand, palm upwards, in line with your eyes and a comfortable distance out. Now raise your right hand to just above nipple height. At this point if you rotate your right wrist forward, the gun should drop to the horizontal, landing in your left hand and being just about perfectly positioned. Your right cheek should be almost touching the stock so a very slight movement will bring it in contact and your eye should be looking straight down the rib. A slight hunch forward with the right shoulder to cradle the stock and you're ready to go. Your upper body NEVER VARIES POSITION. Consider this position, once acquired, to be locked in place so that you are always looking straight down that top rib. Any and all movement required to acquire or track a target comes FROM THE WAIST, which acts as a universal joint and allows the (locked) upper body to rotate and elevate.

The above should explain why gun fit is so important. The motions above should result in a comfortable and stable mount, exactly the same every time, and with the upper body (and feet) locked. Having established this position, practice getting to it from the ready position. Any shuffling or squirming will result in a varying mount and hence varying accuracy.

So, to gun fit. The are five measurements. Stock length, cast off, drop at comb, drop at heel and pitch of butt. Many cannot be changed on a factory gun.

Stock length (length of pull) is measured from the trigger to the middle of the butt. Correct fit is when the thumb/finger around the wrist of the stock are about 3/4 inch away from your nose. Any closer and you risk them hitting your nose under recoil, and any further away is pushing the gun out from the body and therefore reducing your control over it. Stocks can be shortened, or recoil pads added to extend them.

Drop at comb is obvious, and should be such that your eye looks straight along the rib when your cheek is on the comb.

Cast off is how far the butt is offset from the line along the top rib. It allows for the fact that the pocket your shoulder makes to cradle the butt (in the position described above) is to the right side of your eyeline.

Drop at heel is really defined by drop at comb and pitch of butt.

Pitch of butt. This is the angle of the butt of the gun. When the gun is in the position described above, the butt should make firm contact with your shoulder along its entire length. If there is too much pitch, the top of the butt (the toe) will be in contact but the remainder may not. This will tend to result in the stock lifting under recoil, as it pushes up and back over the shoulder, with the cheek getting whacked. Too little pitch means the heel of the stock (which tends to be quite "pointed") concentrates the recoil resulting in pain and/or bruising.

Of the above, stock length is probably the most important, and most easily adjusted. Drop at comb is harder to adjust, unless you use a super modern gun with an adjustable comb, but quite important. Probably the next most important is pitch, where pain and or poor accuracy will result if it is too far wrong. It's even more important in Australia whens it's hot, with minimal clothing worn and so minimal protection from recoil. Which reminds me, if you're being really fussy, check the gun's fit whilst you are wearing what you be shooting in. An extra inch of clothing can change everything!

If anyone tells you the stock length should be equal to the length of your forearm from elbow to whatever, don't believe them!

If you are ever lucky enough to go shooting driven birds with a loader, the above mount will set you in good stead. When you have fired (one or both barrels), simply lift your right forearm to raise the gun to vertical, leaving your left hand palm up and empty in front of you. Your loader will take the fired gun from you with his left hand, and with his right hand he will place the new gun in your left hand. Drop you right arm back to the wrist of the stock, and take your next shots. Oh, you do have a matched pair of Purdeys, don't you???

And remember, you PULL the trigger(s) on a shotgun, not squeeze!.
Last edited by zzsstt on Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
zzsstt

Post by zzsstt »

Having reread what I posted above, I need to make it clear that the procedure explained is to find the correct position, not for normal shooting. Once you have established your correct mount, you hold the gun in both hands in the ready position and raise it to fire. I don't want anybody wandering around the paddock with their shotgun vertically upwards and their left hand held out in front of them like they were practicing kung-fu.....

Edit: spelling and typng is relly bad tody.....
Last edited by zzsstt on Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr G
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Post by Dr G »

zzsstt wrote:Oh, you do have a matched pair of Purdeys, don't you???
Damned Straight old bean, pass the sherry and tack three points to the starbord beam if you would be so kind mister mathews :lol:

Thanks zzsstt great post. Armed with what you and peter O have posted i can at least go looking for a shotie with a bit of knowledge (and have an idea if the bloke in the shop is full of shit or not)
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RayG
22-250 Remington
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Post by RayG »

Thanks zzsstt, a very well written and informative post, especially for us old lazy beggars who always do it our way. I will start my retraining immediately! Your info also solves a long unanswered query of mine about an English Clay shooting friend, I have often wondered why just as he sets himself up on the firing line why he throws his left arm straight up in the air then his body seems to fall into his shooting stance and he rarely moves his feet an inch while devastating practically every clay. I will pay more attention to his style I may learn something.
cheers, Ray. :) :)
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17hmr
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Post by 17hmr »

thanks for that zzsstt and pete o. very good explanation! should help me out when choosing
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