Battle of the scout/varmint rifle hots up.

[The Raven]

A couple of years ago Ruger released the Gunsite Scout Rifle (GSR) in 308Win. It gained a lot of rave reviews at the time and appears to have sold well locally in blued or stainless, and left and right hand versions.

Since then Mossberg has released it's MVP range of rifles in several combinations starting with a 5.56 NATO/.223 Rem chambering, which is now available locally in 308Win and (soon) 300BLK. Add to that a number of model variants Patrol, Predator, and Thunder Range. Recently their FLEX range hit the local shelves with an AR-styled 'tacticool' bolt action with collapsible stock and the ability to take AR mags.

This week Ruger has responded by offering a revised version of the GSR, now in 5.56NATO/.223 Rem. It's interesting to note this recent trend to support NATO chamberings. Given the recent ammo shortages in the US are coming to an end, are they expecting a flood of milsurplus ammo? Perhaps they are expecting an impending zombie apocalypse (or IS/ebola equivalent) where having the ability to pick up AR Magazines (ala Mossberg) or 5.56 ammo from suburban battlefields would be handy...

Ruger must be getting nervous about the Mossberg MVPs impacting on their GSR sales, but did they miss the boat by not expanding their range of GSR offerings earlier (as Mossberg is doing now)?

Getting beyond these two, there are other manufacturers of scout styled rifles. Savage and Styer both offer their own versions.

The Styer Scout was very high tech, but also high price, so few actually bought it.
I must admit to liking the Ruger GSR but I didn't need a short barrel 308Win.
Initially I liked the MVP Flex, but the tacticool thing has worn off.
The Savage Scout seems to be fine rifle but it looks like a basic tupperware rifle.
This brings me back to the MVP Predator which has all the looks of the Ruger and extra features (eg. laminate stock, AR mag compatibility, 20inch barrel, or 18.5inch fluted varmint barrel).

So I pose the question: If you were in the market for a scout style rifle which of the current crop would you consider a good buy and what calibre would you choose?

[220]

Ive never got the whole scout rifle craze, I cant see anything they can do that there isn't something else better suited to the same task.
If we had access to AR mags then maybe it would be a selling point but given the Aus military don't use AR mags the chances of finding a stash of them are fairly slim. If things got to the stage you could pick them up of the battle field then you would probably be picking up AR's as well and in that situation I know which I would rather.

[kjd]

Mate I really think you are overestimating the reach Mossberg has had, well in Australia at the very least.

We have sold 1 yes 1 MVP whilst we have sold dozens of GSR's and the supplier at one stage had over 400 back orders for them without having them in stock and the GSR in 223 will sell twice as many!
The biggest mistake Ruger did was using their own proprietary magazine instead of AR mags?

That being said domestically the amount of Tikkas we have sold over the GSR and MVP would likely be ten-fold.. I don't believe the scout rifle is really a "thing" is Australia at the moment.

The most popular gun in sales and enquiries in our Sydney store at least is Tikka. It really is incredible the amount of them we sell.

It will change though, it was once Rem SPS that flew off the shelves and Rugers even had their time in the sun, what's next? No idea as I can't see Tikka's popularity waning in the near future.

But I think the Commercial versions of the NATO rounds have always been popular. It is just the amount of Tactards out there that want them to be referred to as the military Designations.

[adamjp]

To make the GSR in 223 feed from a M16 magazine box is quite difficult. Have a look at how the top of the magazine box works and then look at how the bolt can interact with it.

Having said that, a few blokes at work have gone ga ga over the Ruger GSR, I've Cerakoted one, fitted lighter trigger springs on a couple and bedded one. Not a rifle coming to my safe anytime soon.

[220]

Hardly a true scout rifle, more a carbine with detachable mag.

[davegh2o]

So what really constitutes a "scout rifle".

I have no idea, if I did have any guess. It sure as shit wouldn't look like any of those being marketed as one.

I know Scouts, and they don't use firearms like these.

[The Raven]

Mate I really think you are overestimating the reach Mossberg has had, well in Australia at the very least.

We have sold 1 yes 1 MVP whilst we have sold dozens of GSR's and the supplier at one stage had over 400 back orders for them without having them in stock and the GSR in 223 will sell twice as many!
The biggest mistake Ruger did was using their own proprietary magazine instead of AR mags?

That being said domestically the amount of Tikkas we have sold over the GSR and MVP would likely be ten-fold.. I don't believe the scout rifle is really a "thing" is Australia at the moment.

The most popular gun in sales and enquiries in our Sydney store at least is Tikka. It really is incredible the amount of them we sell.

It will change though, it was once Rem SPS that flew off the shelves and Rugers even had their time in the sun, what's next? No idea as I can't see Tikka's popularity waning in the near future.

But I think the Commercial versions of the NATO rounds have always been popular. It is just the amount of Tactards out there that want them to be referred to as the military Designations.

Hi Keith,

I get what you're saying and I'm not suggesting Mossberg's are flying out the door, or that scout style rifles are outselling other rifles. I'm simply saying that the Ruger GSR has some more competition, and this may be why they offer a 5.56 model now rather than 3 years ago.

'Scout' is also a poor name this style of rifle, perhaps carbine is more applicable (as 220 points out).

Sure you've sold one MVP, but then you don't normally stock them. So it's not surprising you've sold a lot more of the brands you do stock. As for Tikka sales, a fairer comparison would look at Battue sales only.

Yes, Tikka make excellent rifles and price them right. Hence lots of sales. However, that doesn't mean it has to be the only choice.

I agree the AR magazine thing provides near zero advantage to the Australian market. It might be fine for the US where AR rifles and mags are available in every LGS, but not here.

Whether anyone likes the carbine or scout rifles or not, they at least offer something different than the traditional hunting rifle. Trends can change and perhaps this 'scout' niche will have it's day.

I do like the idea of offering the 5.56 NATO chambering. It makes sense for those markets where milsurp ammo is an option, and it may appeal to tactards who want to quote military designations.

Changing the argument a tad, it was interesting to note in the scope magnification thread how some said they preferred lower settings when hunting in thick scrub. Wouldn't a shorter barreled rifle also be of benefit in thick scrub (aka scout/carbine)? Who needs a 20+inch barrel if hunting in thick scrub? I think some of these newer 'carbine' rifles would fit that use perfectly, even if the styling gets a bit tactard

[The Raven]

Hardly a true scout rifle, more a carbine with detachable mag.

True. The Cooper definition of a scout rifle doesn't fit most of these rifles. It's like the pirate code, more of a set of guidelines...

[The Raven]

So what really constitutes a "scout rifle".

I have no idea, if I did have any guess. It sure as shit wouldn't look like any of those being marketed as one.

I know Scouts, and they don't use firearms like these.

Stolen definition from Wikipedia:

The Scout Rifle is a class of general-purpose rifles defined and promoted by Jeff Cooper in the early 1980s.

These bolt action carbines are typically .308 caliber (7.62mm), less than 1 meter in length, and less than 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds) in weight, with iron and optical sights and fitted with practical slings (such as Ching slings) for shooting and carrying, and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes. Typically they employ forward-mounted low-power long eye relief scopes or sights to afford easy access to the top of the rifle action for rapid reloading. Although the Steyr Scout is the only rifle Jeff Cooper has been personally involved with, Ruger, Savage, and several other gun makers now manufacture Scout rifles that roughly match Cooper's specifications.

[kjd]

Mate I really think you are overestimating the reach Mossberg has had, well in Australia at the very least.

We have sold 1 yes 1 MVP whilst we have sold dozens of GSR's and the supplier at one stage had over 400 back orders for them without having them in stock and the GSR in 223 will sell twice as many!
The biggest mistake Ruger did was using their own proprietary magazine instead of AR mags?

That being said domestically the amount of Tikkas we have sold over the GSR and MVP would likely be ten-fold.. I don't believe the scout rifle is really a "thing" is Australia at the moment.

The most popular gun in sales and enquiries in our Sydney store at least is Tikka. It really is incredible the amount of them we sell.

It will change though, it was once Rem SPS that flew off the shelves and Rugers even had their time in the sun, what's next? No idea as I can't see Tikka's popularity waning in the near future.

But I think the Commercial versions of the NATO rounds have always been popular. It is just the amount of Tactards out there that want them to be referred to as the military Designations.

Hi Keith,

I get what you're saying and I'm not suggesting Mossberg's are flying out the door, or that scout style rifles are outselling other rifles. I'm simply saying that the Ruger GSR has some more competition, and this may be why they offer a 5.56 model now rather than 3 years ago.

'Scout' is also a poor name this style of rifle, perhaps carbine is more applicable (as 220 points out).

Sure you've sold one MVP, but then you don't normally stock them. So it's not surprising you've sold a lot more of the brands you do stock. As for Tikka sales, a fairer comparison would look at Battue sales only.

Yes, Tikka make excellent rifles and price them right. Hence lots of sales. However, that doesn't mean it has to be the only choice.

I agree the AR magazine thing provides near zero advantage to the Australian market. It might be fine for the US where AR rifles and mags are available in every LGS, but not here.

Whether anyone likes the carbine or scout rifles or not, they at least offer something different than the traditional hunting rifle. Trends can change and perhaps this 'scout' niche will have it's day.

I do like the idea of offering the 5.56 NATO chambering. It makes sense for those markets where milsurp ammo is an option, and it may appeal to tactards who want to quote military designations.

Changing the argument a tad, it was interesting to note in the scope magnification thread how some said they preferred lower settings when hunting in thick scrub. Wouldn't a shorter barreled rifle also be of benefit in thick scrub (aka scout/carbine)? Who needs a 20+inch barrel if hunting in thick scrub? I think some of these newer 'carbine' rifles would fit that use perfectly, even if the styling gets a bit tactard

I disagree mate, I handle all email and internet enquiries and it get asked for all sorts of things mate things we stock and things we don't. MVP has been mentioned maybe 5 times out of thousands of enquiries. Not saying it's shit or it's a sales dud but I don't see how it is remotely competition for the GSR, especially when the importer is tiny and doesnt market it or even have reps. And the Battue is still more popular than the MVP but a little bit less than the GSR

Can we all agree on something though?
Please can we just call it a 223 or 308... Sure they market it as such but that's just to appease the tactard crowd and they all fire 223rem and 308 win ammo out of it anyway just as they fire mil surp out of the commercial chamberings.

[trevort]

Hmmm. When you wake up and scratch your nuts you'll be glad it was just a bad drwam

[220]

Hardly a true scout rifle, more a carbine with detachable mag.

True. The Cooper definition of a scout rifle doesn't fit most of these rifles. It's like the pirate code, more of a set of guidelines...

My 30/30 fits the definition better, less than 1m, less than 7lb, open and optical sights, sling, 30 cal, rapid reloading accurate to 450m
I guess its a scout rifle

[The Raven]

I disagree mate, I handle all email and internet enquiries and it get asked for all sorts of things mate things we stock and things we don't. MVP has been mentioned maybe 5 times out of thousands of enquiries. Not saying it's shit or it's a sales dud but I don't see how it is remotely competition for the GSR, especially when the importer is tiny and doesnt market it or even have reps. And the Battue is still more popular than the MVP but a little bit less than the GSR

Can we all agree on something though?
Please can we just call it a 223 or 308... Sure they market it as such but that's just to appease the tactard crowd and they all fire 223rem and 308 win ammo out of it anyway just as they fire mil surp out of the commercial chamberings.

Hi Keith, happy to accept your experience in selling these things but I do think the GSR and MVP has some overalapping market appeal. Take a look at the MVP Predator and the GSR, from a distance they are very similar: Laminated, short barreled, bolt action, with magazine.

I totally agreed that the Mossberg distribution isn't as extensive as other brands, and I can't comment on the Battue as I've never seen one anywhere.

As small as a the differences are between commercial and NATO designations there is a still a difference worth noting, and not all are interchangable in all rifles. I agree that for commercially available rifles we can simply call these 233 or 308. However I think a few would get twicthy if we started glossing over the differences and imply these are identical to their NATO equivalents.

[The Raven]

Hardly a true scout rifle, more a carbine with detachable mag.

True. The Cooper definition of a scout rifle doesn't fit most of these rifles. It's like the pirate code, more of a set of guidelines...

My 30/30 fits the definition better, less than 1m, less than 7lb, open and optical sights, sling, 30 cal, rapid reloading accurate to 450m
I guess its a scout rifle

450m with 30/30! Let me know when you sell that

Can't disagree with levers being used as scout rifles, history has proven that...and I like levers

This is why Jeff Coopers designation can't be taken as gospel when labelling something a 'scout rifle'. He had his reasoning for his specs but we have to recognise things have changed since the 80's.

Consider:

Must a scout rifle have a long eye relief scope when today's RedDots can be just as effective? No.
Must it have backup sights, noting most military forces find modern optics more than reliable enough? No.
Must it have the ability to top off? It may be handy on some rifles but a magazine can be just as effective (or a loading gate on a lever).
Must it be a bolt action? No. Just simple, reliable, easy to clean/maintain....consider the AK
Must it be 308? No, take a look at how effective some of the newer military 5.56 is (eg. Thales).

Short, handy, lightweight, easy to reload, effective sighting system for short to medium ranges, perhaps a sling, but overall reliable and easy to maintain.

[The Raven]

Hmmm. When you wake up and scratch your nuts you'll be glad it was just a bad drwam