AusVarmint

z

G'Day Dave

I can contibute absolutely nothing to your post having never set foot on a range let alone attended a BR competition. I do have a newbie type question howver that i hope someone here can answer

What is the difference between a IBS comp and a marked target comp?

Just trying to learn something new for the day

Thanks

Dr G

z

z

Thanks dg it makes a lot of sense.

At 1000yrds with no feedback on to where the shot landed you would want to be pretty confident of your abilitys. It would make it a dificult discipline to learn.

That said i am in awe of anyone who can even hit a target at that range. I am stoked every time i get a cat out beyond 250m with the 223.

Interesting post Dave. As for the statisics of shoots to date, the gap between the two styles has not closed and a look at the list of all top scores and groups to date is seriously dominated by the blind shooters in both classes of guns. This is suprising to me as i honestly thought that the score side of the shoot would favour the marked method. This is not the case from the scores being listed. If it was to happen, the scores should have been posted well and truly by now. The interesting thing is that in one of the worst years for weather to be seen at our home range, the heavy gun scores are going to produce another six match record, and the group side is also at a record low 7 inch area already for six matches with 2 matches still to go. Both of thes new records in HG will have been done using the blind method.
Recently an argument was put to me that in the crap, the blind runners have an edge where the delay for marking is score and group robbing. One would logically deduce from that that when the conditions are good that the marked guys would have an edge. The thing that is glaringly missing from the above argument is that if it is a disadvantage shooting the marked method in the crap, then the only logical conclusion i could give is, shoot blind. Simple. This thought process above is to my way of thinking flawed because if it can be done in shit conditions, who would think that the blind shooter would do worse when the condition is good.? I reckon in a trigger pull, if i couldn't do 195 plus with a 5.xxx inch group agg or better, then the gun needs a cerimonial burning at the bench.
From the perspective of trying to encourage other shooters to cross over and try 1K, like for instance the FClass guys, the marked method is something they are already used to, so the transition, if you like, is FClass from a bench and is natural to them. But without trying to denegrate these guys, statistically this method has not shown itself to be the best option on any range so far.
Belmont, from what i know of from those that i have spoken to that have shot there, should definitely favour the marked method with the score side of things mainly because of the lack of feedback from the range whereby the flightline and current flags in use are at two different levels. This will change as some i have spoken to are about to build suitable flags or already do have suitable flags to erect at that range to get the height required. So the next 12 months there should see an interesting statistic evolve.

I, with others have looked very closely at all the stats Australia wide, and the jury for me is about to give the verdict that the marked method is at a disadvantage and i have yet to see anything that would contradict that conclusion in the near future. As for the two methods, a distinct record of either is neccessary as the run so far is with the blind shooters. This seperate recording i see as being a preventative to having one side, if you like, achieving superiority over the other and then grinding it home causing the other to abandon ship and look to different alternatives. The last thing needed right now is for an us and them scenario and running the records together. Without a clear outcome for both styles i see as not a healthy aspect to the sport. If anyone wants to shoot any method allowable to date, then by all means let them do it as the last thing we need is a bad reputation, bad word of mouth or decreasing numbers.

The Japanese have prospered over the years with a very simple belief when it comes to certain things.
" Without measurement, we have no control. With no control, we have no advancement."
This doctrine is very relevant to 1K right now.

Tony Z.

dg,

IBS rules should apply as stated in the NRAA rules ... the marked target shooters are really shooting a match for score IMHO as group would be lesser consideration.

Unless I am mistaken the NRAA already have a score match in F Open which meets their requirements and is shot as part of normal events programs at NRAA ranges Australia wide including Queens matches at 1000 yds. They could petition the NRAA to allow them to use benches ..but I dont like there chances.

cheers
Rinso

Getting away from the statistical stuff for a minute, to introduce a shoot into the fold as the NRAA has done with the adaptation of 1000 Yd IBS and inclusion of the IBS rules into their SSRs has to be seen that this discipline is to be taken seriously and not some form of relaxed get together for shooters to practise for some other upcoming event. This discipline will have and always has had its serious devotees. To try and manipulate the rules to suit your Sunday afternoon or maybe because the existing rules or format are too hard basket, or if i don't get my way me and my three mates are gunna head off attitude, i have two choice words. Fuck off.


If 1K appears elitist to you, then that is really just too bad. There are and always will be serious people having lots of fun shooting to a set of rules, or as closely to a given set of rules that circumstance will allow. To think for one moment that this or any other form of shooting can exist or grow without its serious people is just pure crap. The origin of this very sport started out of some serious people wanting to have a crack at this thing that the yanks dominate and to think that we are going to change a proven formula for the sake of pleasing a few is going to be a sad tale. By all means come and shoot whichever way you wish, but i will be there on the line to shoot as small a group as possible and as high a score as possible, all blind, with the view that that match is part of the way to a great six and ten match aggregate for the year. Then at the end of that year i can look at how i compare to the best of the yanks. If you think i have come to your range to kick your butt or prove that marked shooting really does suck and blow, then you're wrong. It would be a safe bet that every blind shooter in the country is the serious guy who does just what i have stated at the end of their year.
At the end of the day if there are ten ways to shoot 1K, the only one that will mean anything to me is the way i shoot it now, and if by some miracle a style comes along and kicks my butt each and every time, i am still going to go with the way i have till now. 1K was not designed to be easy and some of the recent changes are not making it easier, rather harder in my view, and uncertainty of the future direction is confusing some. Not me, i always know where i'm headed in this sport.

Tony Z.

this situation may prove a little contentious for the short term, but I suspect, as both DG and TZ indicate, (to me anyway) that a resolution is required, and soon. i have seen a little of the "blind" shooting up here (Townsville) and the results in the conditions are a real compliment to the shooters and rifle builders: to stand in the butts and watch a blind 4-5' group come down, sometimes 'machine-gunned" to pick the conditions is awe -inspiring; one day, maybe, I'll do something like that.
One proposal I have read from one of the top US shooters in to run the event as a "timed fire" event; the shoot window of for example, 20 seconds per shot is called by the RO, with a period of, say, 1mintue between windows.
T
his would (perhaps) overcome the "machine-gunning" advantage of those who currently practice it, but I believe these same people are so good at picking conditions that they will rise to the top anyway.
We have a very challenging sport, and I would hate to see it go the way of some of the other shooting "sports" where personal influence rises above the sport itself.
let's just keep it together, in comradeship, and keep the search for an (unfair?) advantage out of it.
Geoff the WOOB

Woob, as far as i know there are only two drop port magnum actions in existance, there may be others but i have no knowledge of them. They were definetly built for speed and are just that. But this year, i was the picker as was Jeff. Albeit we were able to run with a couple of shots here and there, but generally this year the action may aswell have been a cradle type as i truly believe their speed never gave us any sort of advantage this time around. That last 1K match where i got the 97.5x took all of the ten minutes where the the first shot was fired in the first ten seconds. I'm sure Alpal can atest to that as he was down the butts at the time. Never at any time on our range have i ever fired all ten shots off in one run, but i am able to if needed very quickly and in probably less than 30 seconds. Non of our LG guys are runners, they're all pickers. The point here is that no matter what the range, or the condition, whether it be Cantberra or Townsville or somwhere inbetween, the stats are with the blind shooters. The exact reason for this is not completely clear to me at this time and may well never be. The question that i really need answered at this point is that if a shooter can drill tiny groups on the odd occasion and score well in the Fly by picking their way through the course of a match, being able to see the bullet impact, why can't the same be done at 1K. I personally think that this scenario was the principal belief that a seen shot at 1K can translate into similar results like on the Fly target.

Now you can take this for what you paid for it. Bob Luther when he shot his 244.x Fly score a couple of years back with his 30/284 LG did so without seeing a solitary shot due to the crap mirage we had that day. Still his highest ever score. The single theme that JR and myself have in common being the only shooters to get into the 250 Fly scores is that we blew the chance to get into the 260s or even the 270 area because we saw shots and we chased them thus blowing groups and scores on those individual cards. Had we stuck to our bracketing tecnique like we use at 1K, i am absolutely certain all those scores would have and should have been higher.

I have now seen a year of 600 IBS and can see where the sticking to your guns of bracketing and knowing you ain't ever gunna see a shot inside the blue is going to pay dividends in Fly shooting just like it has with the group and score capabilities in the 600 itself. Christ, Bob Noakes doesn't even use his second sighter period because he is so tight and he's been the man to catch all year in LG 600. He just sticks to his bracket and runs the average and this year it has paid off.
I said from the beginning and still maintain, when you see a marked shot in the 10 ring at 1K, then its followed by a wide shot in the 9 or 8 ring what does one do? The dilema of kicking your bracket to one side and going with the last shot as a sighter would be so tempting that if you do, the law of averages says that you're gunna go out the other side because you are shooting the average and the average returns and you have aimed off. Where is that shot going to go? Nowhere else but the other side. So you have just killed score aswell as group in one shot. But surely by now someone should have overcome this temptation and gotten on top of the scene. But it just has not happened.
The only way i could ever see a changing of the guard with relation to marked and blind, is to shoot it like Hunter Class where sighters and record can be shot randomly during the record string. See a change, throw down a sighter and then instantly aim off and shoot record. Cannot at this point see any other way for the marked system to overtake the blind shooting style rain hail or shine.

As a last comment. The day, if it ever does come, where i can go to the range here at home and run 10 shots in HG for six matches in one year, without having to check fire once will be the year a six match group and score agg are 5 inch or better 580.xx or better. This is what i built these drop ports for, this is why another two are being built and if the 40 years of rules say i can run the shots as quick as i wish, and the yanks have done it and are going to continue to do so, then so can i.

Tony Z

wel

Personally, I dont care too much how other people choose to shoot the 1KBR, I'll just keep going with what I do knowing that if I ever shoot a WR target, it will actually count.

The first couple of times I shot, I shot marked because thats what most people seemed to be doing. I think DG first encouraged me to give the IBS style a go, and I have done it that way since. I think it has definitely improved my groups. The suspense of waiting for the target to come up at the end of the relay to see how I've done has definitely made it more fun in general.

Keeping seperate scores etc for either style isn't a big deal to do, but I reckon you'll see people stop turning up if the way it is allowed to be shot is changed. There are few enough people shooting it as it is.

So really, my view is to let people do what they like, and keep scores seperate. I dont think either camp can really have too much to complain about there.

hi all, it seems to me that there is no real objection to shooters using the spotted method if they want, and the clubs seem willing to accomadate this style, so there should be no problems with shooters making their choise on the day,

re the scoring, and weather it be seperate or not, i don't see any real need for seperate scoring, 1000yrd is 1000yrd and you either want to shoot it or not. if people really want to see the differances in the styles maybe we can ask the scorers to put an S or B prefix on the score, that way individuals can check their (for want of a better word, 'class') score and let the scorers get on with their job.

re the recognitition of records, well some time ago i ask ajr about this and if i remember correctly jeff said that the US guys would or may not recognise our records as we did not shoot the comp strictly to their ibs rules. i think jeff said there was a problem with the way we ran our shoots ie because we would need more ro's than shooters to shoot the US way we had to make a small comprimise (jeff can explain this better) and as such any records shot here (in Aus) would only be recognised here.

if this is the case then i see no problem with us (Australians) adopting a 'spotted or blind' option for shooters.

Pete.

Pete, there never has been an instance where we could have claimed any sort of records in 1K IBS here is Aus mainly because we firstly don't have the officials to ovesee the matches, and secondly the format of 2 match aggregates is not the exact match procedure the yanks use. There should be a winner for group and score in each class in each relay and then shootoffs from there for the overall winners. We currently shoot to their Nationals system of a two match aggregate. Everything else as far as times, guns and shoot procedure are as per the IBS rule book.

As far as the marked and blind system goes, i have no problem going with unseperated scoring and recording if the marked guys are happy to see all the records go to the blind shooters as they already are now. The gap between the blind and spotted shooters is actually opening up at the top end and if this stays as it is, i can envisage a slow change to the blind method over time aswell as a reduction of numbers shooting because of the widening gap. By not seperating the two, i cannot see the marked system growing or even lasting in the long term so this suits me and others i have spoken to just fine. My loyalties will always lay with the blind method, but in saying that i will offer the other alternative shoot in every match we hold and would dearly love to see someone take up the offer to see what the result is here on our home range.

Tony Z.

Tony Z wrote:Pete, there never has been an instance where we could have claimed any sort of records in 1K IBS here is Aus mainly because we firstly don't have the officials to ovesee the matches, and secondly the format of 2 match aggregates is not the exact match procedure the yanks use. There should be a winner for group and score in each class in each relay and then shootoffs from there for the overall winners. We currently shoot to their Nationals system of a two match aggregate. Everything else as far as times, guns and shoot procedure are as per the IBS rule book.

From what I can see in the rules, it's mostly because we dont send the IBS money for registering each competitor, registering each match etc etc etc.