AusVarmint

Australian ExtraVision 1000yd BR

July and Progressive Postal Match results are shown in the competition portal.

Congratulations to Dan Lynch of the Brisbane Club for establishing a new Australian 1000yd BR Lightgun record of 3.071".

if, Dan or an associate could supply a postal address,in recognition of his achievement a Smiley will be forwarded.

on other matters

From 2012 onwards, the new standard for the accomplishment of a Smiley will be less than 3" for LG and less than 5" for HG.( as per the IBS updated screamer standards introduced in 2011).

It seems the challenge and difficulty of International 1000yd BR has increased to a new level!!!!

Who would want it any other way??????

cheers
dave g

Yes well done Dan on the new record shot blind.Top effort.
There are some really good yearly aggs happening across HG and Lg well done fellas.
Jeez those smileys are going to be a rare commodity next year.
cheers

dg wrote:Australian ExtraVision 1000yd BR


Congratulations to Dan Lynch of the Brisbane Club for establishing a new Australian 1000yd BR Lightgun record of 3.071".


cheers
dave g

Congratulations to Dan for shooting a great group and in fact I witnessed it whilst working in the butts that day. Good idea having awards and "smiley faces" etc BUT that group is not an AUSTRALIAN RECORD. The Australian record small group at 1,000 yards benchrest in the Light Gun Class is 2.067" . I'm not having a go at Dan here as it's not his making or his fault but there is no distinction in the rules about records for groups shot using either the blind or marked system, nor should there. So it is wrong for anyone to go around saying you have some other system of AUSTRALIAN RECORDS shot at 1,000 yd Benchrest. It gives people who would not otherwise know the wrong impression and that there are two sets of records. Records are established according to the official rules. Read the official rules on the NRAA website under SSR's (standard shooting rules for all events) http://www.nraa.com.au/pubs/SSRs.pdf
There is no mention of separate results or records. In fact there was a recent move taken to the NRAA try and force clubs to keep separate results sheets of who shoots blind and who shoots marked and that failed so why continue to promote something as "official" when it clearly is not. Smiley faces or other awards to recognise this sort of thing are all fine but when it comes to what are records you refer to the official rules.

Here is a quote from those rules about records.
22.8.4 Records
(a) Potential State, National or International record breaking groups or
scores should be carefully examined. In the case where Host Clubs
use the glued target faces system or where targets do not normally get
replaced between matches it is recommended that any targets having
potential records be removed for later examination and that another
prepared target be used for the rest of the match.
(b) Records can be recognised for the following:-
1. Smallest 10 shot individual group (Heavy Gun Class).
2. Smallest 5 shot individual group (Light Gun Class).
3. Highest scoring 10 shot individual target (including X ring counts)
(Heavy Gun Class).
4. Highest scoring 5 shot individual target (including X ring counts)
(Light Gun Class).
5. Highest 6 match group average (Heavy Gun Class).
6. Highest 6 match group average (Light Gun Class).
7. Highest 6 match score average in (Heavy Gun Class).
8. Highest 6 match score average in (Light Gun Class).

Stuart Elliott

BRT wrote:..........group is not an AUSTRALIAN RECORD. The Australian record small group at 1,000 yards benchrest in the Light Gun Class is 2.067" . I'm not having a go at Dan here as it's not his making or his fault but there is no distinction in the rules about records for groups shot using either the blind or marked system, nor should there..................

Stuart Elliott

Hi folks,

I'm a bit naiive in all this, and I hope I'm not entering "flameproof suit" territory, but why isn't there a seperate record for the blind system?

Stuart makes the point above that there is no distinction, "nor should there be". I don't doubt what Stuart has said, but just fail to see why there should not be a seperate record, if not now, then at least a seperate category established for the future. (I understand that such changes take time to implement). Is shooting marked so similar to shooting blind that a seperate category is unjustified? Or is there some other reason?

Apart from all that, well done to Dan. Even in my ignorance of 1000ydBR, I can understand that your score is a great achievement.

regards, curan

Curan,

Well said. Blind shooting is exactly that, you have no input from the start to the finish of the record period, as per the IBS system. Marked shooting is exactly that, each shot is marked on the target as you go, so you get input as to what the conditions are doing to your rounds throughout the record period. Is this an advantage? Some say yes, others no. Personally I feel there should be a distinction made in the record system, as the blind method relies wholely on the skill of the shooter, without ANY outside assistance, whether it be helpful or not. Stuart obviously disagrees, but then, it's a funny thing, but he seems to shoot mainly blind these days. Despite what the regs, or Stuart says, there will always be an unofficial record of the blind record amongst shooters who want to know. If it is such a non event, why was the new light gun record target photoshopped onto a blank target for display? I'm curious to know the real reason.

Jeff

Hi All , The only thing i would like to see is more input from the average shooter.. Good on you Curan.. You know the one that hardly ever speaks up .. It's not about the guys that are winning , to me it's about the whole competition community of 1000yd benchrest.. JR.. Jeff Rogers

I shot the 2.067 inch group. I hold the Australian Light Gun record and I think I deserve a voice in this.

Skill is an important part of 1000 yard shooting, luck is also a part. On the target in question, I used one and got touched by a bit of the other.

For those of you who don't know what happened...

I travelled to Brisbane to compete with the 8 – 80x in the 1000 yard Benchrest Match using a borrowed rifle in 6.5 x 47. I chose to run the March at 80x for the full match as the weather and conditions made anything lower a waste. On the 1000 yard benchrest target the scope could pick out the 3/4 inch patches as the day progressed and these could be used as aiming points.

I went to the match to concentrate on shooting high scores and taking whatever groups came with that. On my final target on 25 July 2010, the conditions changed to something I had not seen before. A dead and dull condition with a right to left trickle of wind. Holding the 3/32nd dot on the blue line between the printed numbers 7 and 6, I fired. The shot came up in the nine just left of the 10 ring. I held the dot to the right of the same line and fired again. The shot was in the same place. I quickly banged down the final three shots watching the flags flicker and adjusting either side of the line but the group didn’t seem to grow any bigger.

Feedback from the Butts was very exuberant as they measured the group and checked and rechecked its size. It wasn’t until shooting had finished for the day that I found out I had just shot a new Australian record of 2.067 inches in the Light Gun class using a borrowed gun and a March 80 power scope.

The condition went away just after I stood up.

A Butt crew witnessed this. A shooting line watched me shoot 5 shots.

Before this group my best Light Gun group was 7.2 inches. I am an average shooter. I shoot in accordance with the NRAA rules on a NRAA range during a NRAA sanctioned competition. The IBS doesn't count in this country; the NRAA does.

My desire for 1000 yard benchrest is to grow the sport and have people enjoy the shooting. I do not care what they shoot as long as they are shooting.

Funnily enough, my group has received praise and positive feedback from 1000 yard competitors and long range shooters in the UK, Canada and the US but all I seem to have received is criticism in Australia.

Also funnily enough, the international shooters' feedback is that they do not case that we shoot marked or blind. They are confused why there is ongoing and destructive debate in what adds up to about 50 shooters in the whole country.

Having only shot one 1000y br event ( many more to come but ) i am confused by the record system so maybe you guys can help me out. Let's say that magic day comes and mother nature provides some out of the ordinary conditions and T. Sarver's 1.397" group is bettered, is it recognised as a new world record if it shot blind? my understanding is it would be as per IBS rules. Ok so is it also a new world record if it is shot marked? from what i understand it is not?

No matter what sport you play or what club you are involved in division is always going to be amongst the ranks, ego's and personal differences and so on, but to ME ( and only my OPINION as i shot marked on my first atempt ) if i was to be the guy BLESSED to eclipse the world record which would be a super human effort in its self, i would be guttered to think that because on that day i chose to shoot marked it is not recognised as a new world record.

I have no intention of upsetting anyone by what i have said but i know for myself i will be shooting blind from here on (just as much to do with getting feedback on my shots usually ends up with a few swear words so i am thinking ill save them all up till the end ).

Congrats Dan on a great performance and good luck to all those who seek that one moment of pure perfection that so few of us get to experience. But then again thats what its all about and having fun in the process

Deano

Well done to the groups and records guys, well deserved.

I say that the blind and marked should not be classed the same... because they are not. A record for marked, and a record for blind. They are two seperate shooting ways, how can they be judged against each other??

If a rule book does say they are classed the same, I must ask how that came around, and how and who sanctioned this. I am not to sure why we even have the marked version in all honesty. Who initiated it and why? This was not what the sport was. When I shoot I want my scores and groups to tally against the US, and the way they shoot. It is like the marked version made it into the rule book, but then the record area was forgotten to be changed to suit this.

To me, the blind record is where it is at. Nothing against any shooter using the marked system, but I do not take notice of this. I take notice of the blind record, cause thats what I shoot, and thats what I want to beat!

I will say 90% of shooters will feel this way. If a nice group is shot by someone, and then another asked who shot it, and how it was shot, and if the word "marked" was mentioned then this guy will feel like the pressure is off... because it was shot marked.

Shooting marked is like buying homebrand cornflakes and thinking they are the same as the real deal. Sorry.

I might cop some fire for this post, but I dont care. I know I am not alone, specially when we start talking records.... saying goes.... apples to apples, oranges to oranges!

Cheers

Stuart

Re-read the topic heading -"ExtraVision 3rd 1000yd BR International Postal Match Results"

That’s right we are talking and referring to an International Competition and International rules, so in reality the Australian rules which you refer to are meaningless and in fact embarrassing from an International perspective.

You are entitled to your opinion, as in anyone else on this matter.

We began this International 1000yd BR competition for many reasons, some of which were to try and regain our International credibility and re-establish our International Affiliations with the IBS.

Which, by the way, we have successfully achieved without any input or assistance from you.

As you would or should know the IBS will not recognise any 1000yd BR competition in which marked and blind results are directly compared.

They do not permit it and they believe it is CHEATING to mark and show the location of shots on the target as they are progressively shot in the record period.

And in International competitions I support their stand and principles.

In the 1000yd BR rules that you drafted, no reference or allowance for International Competitions has been made. Care to comment or explain why this omission occurred?

Dan Lynch shot his group blind and it is therefore an Australian record for International rules or for Australian Blind shooting.

Most seem to support and accept the premise and need for Australian LRBR to develop and reinforce our international affiliations. We have demonstrated it is possible to achieve this, through our International 1000yd BR postal matches with the USA.

Sadly, like many other omissions and oversights, we cannot achieve the above aims, within the bounds of the existing Australian 1000yd BR rules .

We have an ongoing relationship with the IBS in which we share results and other information. In fact at all levels of the IBS, we have and continue to receive support and recognition in what we are trying to do to foster and develop 1000yd BR domestically and internationally.

If you or anyone else cannot appreciate, acknowledge or understand what and why we continue to do what we are doing, then that’s not our problem.

You seem to conveniently ignore that you were prepared to set a precedent by ignoring the existing NRAA 1000yd BR rules in 2004 when you approved and established the marked target shooting style.

Therefore, would it not be seen to be hypocritical for you to attempt to direct me or anyone else that we should now follow the inequitable Australian rules that exist today?

It has not worked since 2004 and I guess it ain’t gonna work now or in the future!!

Marked Target Australian 1000yd BR shooting results are not recognised or sanctioned in either the NBRSA, IBS or Williamsport 1000yd BR organisations or in our Postal Matches and will continue to remain excluded indefinitely.

Regardless, of what you say or do, on the local domestic scene in Australian 1000yd BR circles, the participating clubs are able to run their matches as they see fit.

Other’s can speak for themselves, at Narromine Dubbo we do not accept or delude ourselves that blind and marked are equitable in degree of difficulty.

Therefore in the interests of equity and sportsmanship we run and categorise them as separate events. Competitors are free to CHOOSE as to the manner they wish to shoot.

We support, provide recognition and respect the right for competitors to shoot in either style, and it seems that, given the apparent enjoyment and feedback from our competitors on the days we have conducted matches, it is progressing somewhat satisfactorily!!!!

Although I could be imagining this!!!!!

Additionally, we also recognise that the additional difficulties that are faced by competitors who attempt to use 308 or 223 calibres in 1000yd BR competition and provide them supplementary levels of reward and recognition.

They are able to use their F class rifles with or without bi pods in our Standard class events and they appear to enjoy the opportunity to experience 1000yd BR without having to build and purchase another rifle.

Another area of competitor interest and potential growth, which you were and are unable to consider, understand or incorporate in the Australian 1000yd BR rules.

You make reference to the Smiley’s that were another initiative that was introduced to encourage and recognise extremely high levels of 1000yd BR achievement.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I can’t seem to see where this important facet of sportsmanship is included in the rules you refer too?

Maybe it is just me, but I believe that in any International, National or Local level Club sporting competition, that they should have regulated and set rule standards that are based on sportsmanship and ensure fairness to all.

I am not alone in the assessment that the existing 1000yd BR rules do not satisfy these basic parameters.

Today ,in Australian society, at all levels, there are governing agencies and standards in place that ensure that inequity cannot be legislated, enforced or accepted in the workplace, community, sport or any other activity. Something else, which may need some additional thought, either now or in the future!

Stuart, in the interests of developing and increasing the profile and participation of this wonderful challenging and unique shooting discipline, from a Domestic and International perspective, perhaps you need to reconsider and accept the existing situation as it exists in Australia for LRBR.

We all have to be accountable and accept responsibility for our words and deeds in the past.

I have no problem being judged by others for what I have said and done in regard to Australian and International 1000yd BR.

So in reality, care to explain just what your real problem or concerns are?

If it is a crime to attempt to:-

• Restore, promote and increase the domestic and international credibility of Australian 1000yd BR
• Recognise and understand that it is not equitable to directly compare blind and marked target 1000yd BR.
• Respect the right of competitors to choose which method of shooting they prefer within domestic competitions and provide appropriate prizes/rewards for their efforts.
• Introduce other incentives that reward and recognise achievement in LRBR.
• Attempt to encourage, introduce and promote interest and participation in Australian 1000yd BR
• Etc etc etc.

Then I guess I won’t be the only person pleading guilty to the above.

If you or anyone wish to continue this discussion, debate or whatever, how about you consider starting an equivalent topic on the LRBR site on benchrest.com.

justify and explain to them how superior and more equitable the Australian rules are when compared to the American rules.

I look forward to seeing the American reaction.

wookie

Ditto the comments for BRT.

I am the world’s worst golfer and have to use “preferred lies” to minimise my personal embarrassment.

At cricket I ain’t never achieved a double digit innings against fast bowling.

However I enjoy these sports and have no problem accepting my limitations.

Equally, I admire and appreciate the ability of others who seem to consistently do so well in these and other sports.

I have never and would never consider or even attempt to change the rules of any sport to suit my lack of ability.

Deano 29 wrote: if i was to be the guy BLESSED to eclipse the world record which would be a super human effort in its self, i would be guttered to think that because on that day i chose to shoot marked it is not recognised as a new world record.

Deano

Well Deano certainly understand your feelings here but even if you shot a very small group using either method it would make no difference for a "world record". There is no such thing really as a "world record" in 1,000 yard Benchrest. It would be a nice theory but there are at least 3 separate organisations in the USA each with different rulebooks and another in the UK with a different rulebook (slightly) and one in Australia with a different rulebook (slightly). So I hear what you are saying but there is NO WORLD BODY and therefore no world championships and therefore no world records. Actually this is not unusual just for 1,000 yard benchrest either. Regular (or original benchrest, short range) has several organisations around the world all with slightly different rules. I think there are now nearly 30 member countries now. That includes Australia (the SSAA) which has more differences in their rules than others. There is a World Body called the WBSF (World Benchrest Shooting Federation) http://www.world-benchrest.com/ and world records are recognised only if shot at a World Championship or other WBSF event. So a record shot here in Australia at an SSAA event would be no more a "world record" than one similar shot at an event in Europe, USA etc. There is a separate set of rules for the WBSF and some countries now follow these rules for their domestic competitions as well. So this is just to illustrate that there are also differences in other closely related shooting events.

My point in my previous reply was simple. No-one likes to read official rules but those rules define what records are accepted. It's OK to have a discussion of internet forums and the like but the rules are the rules. They have just recently been reviewed after being first confirmed in 2008 and are now published. There are some people who are posting here who don't like that. They are welcome to their point of view but it doesn't change the fact that these are official rules for competition in Australia.
It seems many don't want to read the rules. It's not unusual to this shooting sport, happens in most of them.
NRAA website http://www.nraa.com.au/ and then click on publications and SSR's

Stuart Elliott

Stuart,

i stand corrected and my 'bad' using the phrase "world" record. Just goes to show we never stop learning and tasting that dreaded humble pie.

How about we get taken back to the year this all happened, and then have explained how this new marked system came in, and how it was organised to get in.

Anyone can say look at the rules etc... but the rules had to get in there some way... maybe some people dont like the way they came in????

This is how I read into it anyway. Correct me if I am wrong. I am sure there are other people a lot more informed on this subject than me...

I will always shoot blind. Although there is no "world 1000yd records", if I do shoot something real small, I know I have shot it as close to the correct way compared to else where in the world. This sits well with me.

I do believe there is a spot for marked however. New shooters taking the reins.... after that, if they want records to stand.. shoot blind.

At least the northern boys can shoot Fly again huh... lol...

Wookie wrote: Funnily enough, my group has received praise and positive feedback from 1000 yard competitors and long range shooters in the UK, Canada and the US but all I seem to have received is criticism in Australia.

Sorry to read that comment Wookie. I didn't even know the holder of the record was a forum member. However, now that I know, congratulations effing big time!
You say the group was part skill, part luck/conditions, and I s'pose that's fair enough, but enough of us would have battled conditions that have gone bad at the critical moment of our various disciplines and understood it is all part of the game. And the other side of that coin is, if the conditions come good, then you have to be there and be prepared to capitalise. Which it sounds like you did. And whether your score was marked or blind, it's something you should feel bloody good about. Well done.

As for the rest of the debate, well I still don't see why the evolution of 1000BR in Australia would not allow both categories, but once again I am naiive to the inner workings of your discipline, so I'll let that slide............

regards. curan.