Does the gun make the shooter or vice versa.???

native hunter · Post by **native hunter** » Fri May 06, 2011 9:44 am

G'day All,
Theres been lots of talk on actions and custom work of late and its got me thinkin on a few things.
It seems you can have all the flash gear goin but not do any good with it and some who have run of the mill gear do well.
So does a good rifle make a bad shooter any better or does a good shooter make a bad gun shoot better,??
I tend to think its the shooter that makes up a fair percentage of the overall performance,afterall the gun dont fire on its own.!!
I know its nice to have slick actions that feed well and barrels that clean up well,but that does not make them shoot.!!
Its luck of the draw with rimfire, and ammo and shooter capability has alot to do with it.
I suppose its whatever make you feel good.!!
What are your thoughts.??
Regards
Native

chris.tyne · Post by **chris.tyne** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:26 am

Good question Damien,I feel that someone who is a great flag reader with a decent rifle will beat a average flag reader with a shit hot rifle over the course of a match(agg's).
If wind/weather could be totally taken out of the equasion then I think the results would be much closer?.

Regards Chris.

Ackley Improved · Post by **Ackley Improved** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:39 am

Shit shooter with a great rifle will be beaten by a great shooter with a shit rifle...... problem is this.... when a great shooter has a great rifle...... and you'll find most of the great shooters do have a rifle that shoots!!

Chriswillis696 · Post by **Chriswillis696** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:47 am

U gota have a good gun to start off with!!!
If a rifle dont shoot it dont matter who u give it to, it ant goin to shoot.
And yes shooter does make up a big % of what happens when u pull that trigger, but if u dont have good gear u r only chasing your tail ant you.

native hunter · Post by **native hunter** » Fri May 06, 2011 10:58 am

Chris Willis,
What would you define as good gear ?
Native

chris.tyne · Post by **chris.tyne** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:04 am

Chris what you define as good gear and the next bloke could be very different,I consider my gear as good but I have seen better so I do the best I can with what I have got.At what point do you stop chasing your tail so to speak,I turn up and usually make the numbers up for the shoot,I enjoy it(mostly),will I win probably not......................but one day

Regards Chris.

Chriswillis696 · Post by **Chriswillis696** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:14 am

Best gear isnt always custom, i understand that. BUT i wanna try something new.
I believe the best gear is what works for u $$$ doesnt mean anyfin can help sometime tho.
And what i have now i dont believe is workn for me.

native hunter · Post by **native hunter** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:26 am

Ya need a hug Willis ?? Lol

chris.tyne · Post by **chris.tyne** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:36 am

Hey I full well understand where you are coming from cause I am having a full custom built,problem is then I have a full custom and when I dont win then what do I do?................................I am not going to die wondering though.
Do I practise as much as I would like..........NO,would I like better equipment..........YES,would I like to be able to purchase cases of ammo...................YES,is there room for improvement with my flag reading abilities.............................MY WORD THERE IS,but truthfully it is easier for me to justify and actually achieve a new rifle in the safe,will it outweigh the former weaknesses/deficiencies that I mention,NO WAY.
The shooting sports is not much different to most other sports in that there is a fair chance that one of the usual suspects will be odds on to win and you just have to try to be the exception to the rule or keep working away to become one of the suspects, just keep doing it because you enjoy it,or all of the above.
Remember the saying that 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish............shooting sports can be a lot like that .

Geez that was a ramble hey.

Regards Chris.

Chriswillis696 · Post by **Chriswillis696** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:45 am

Well said chris. I fully understand what you r sayn

220 · Post by **220** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:47 am

Depends on what you class as a good gun, if the gun/ammo combination can't shoot possables then I dont think it will mater who is using it. If the shooter can't do likewise then won't matter what they use to an extent.

In events where outright accuracy isn't as important as the shooter, then what may be classed as a bad gun could still be competative in the hands of a good shooter but the firearm still needs to be able to shoot a possable. A 1 1/2moa 22lr will be competative against a 1/2moa rifle in the hands of a good shooter in an event like RF silhouette. Similar story in most of the pistol ISSF events where accuracy needed varies from about 4 to 16moa. More about the shooter technique than what they are using.

For those chasing the utmost in accuracy here is a question I have heard asked in pistol comp.
I can hold a group as big as the 9.6 ring and my ammo shoots groups as wide as 1 scoring rings do I need to chase better ammo.
The first thought would be yes but have a look, if the centre of the group was exactly on the 9.6 ring the worst shot would be a 9.1 and the best a 10.1, given that decimal scoring is only used in finals then in theroy the shooter could actually be picking up points in a normal 60 shot qualification match. Some shots that should have been 9's would be 10's

Brett33 · Post by **Brett33** » Fri May 06, 2011 11:48 am

This is a great discussion, I have always said you need gear that will hold less then 0.3CTC at 50m and would need to average closer to 0.2" CTC. Now I dont care if that gear is Custom or factory if it meats those requirments it is good enough.
Then it comes down to the shooter.
My trip to Brisbane is a great example of this, I left with cofidance in my gear I was holding under 0.3" average from the 3 weeks prior was 0.23" had some nice 0.1? groups.
Got to Brisbane and Practice was good, First Target my nerves were shot but dragged a 245 out of myself, second target was better with a 247 and I was running second over all. Then things fell in a heap last target of day 1 was a 242 and I finished the day 5th. Day 2 was a mess, 238, 240, 238 to finish the day about 40th and overall 20th. On the 12 hour drive home I had plently of time to think about things. I worked out I was not feeling the best, I do not remember any of the 3 targets on Saturday, I could not get my thoughts straight I could not get a run on the wind and by in large failed.
I have been crook all week with a couple days of work so I think I was off at the comp.
So good gear will not make a good shooter, but I firmly believe a good shooter could run top 10 with average gear but not win, I do not compete to just run top ten, may aswell stay home.
If the conditions drop it becomes a equipment race and the only time I have seen that at national level comp was Melb last year I shot 748 from 750 with 2 250 cards, but still ran second on X's but the person that beat me was behind me in Brisbane.
Brett

cam_mackps2 · Post by **cam_mackps2** » Fri May 06, 2011 12:03 pm

I find this an interesting topic.
I haven't got any real great guns just good factory.
If you feel comfortable with your rifle you will shoot better. An example is going spotlighting with mates, you drop stuff on the first shot by just placing the crosshairs on your target but a mate can't hit shit. If your gun fits right you will shoot better than just picking up any gun. That been said if the gun doesn't shoot well then you won't shoot well.

Post by **kjd** » Fri May 06, 2011 12:18 pm

It has to be the shooter
The best shooter in the field I have seen used factory gear soley, no custom actions or barrels. Just a good set up and a good load!

a.JR · Post by **a.JR** » Fri May 06, 2011 1:21 pm

Hi guys , In my experience most shooters are better than the guns they shoot, but will probably never know it (Centerfire only ).. It's because they won't Agg over the coarse of a full competition .. The gun has to shoot in actual poor weather conditions to be any use , you know still put em in small from 18 deg/30% Hum at the start of the 1st day through to 35 deg/ 95% hum at 4 PM on the second day . Only when u put a great shooter with a great gun do you get to see great aggs.. I'll take a great yearly agg over an extraordinary individual group Anytime ..JR..Jeff Rogers

AusVarmint