AusVarmint

G"day All,
I have been reading a thread on another site about rule definitions and how they are followed and not followed by some shooters on a regular basis.
The issue of rests that clamp the forestock come up regularly and this is one that i see at club shoots every week.
I have always wondered about the flat front sections you see bolted to older stocks that enable them to ride on the bags more squarely, I cant seem to find a ruling on them.
I would like to know if theres any other things out there that are happening with people bending or clearly not following the rules that we should watch out for.??
Regards
Native

I'll talk F-Class here...

Where I've seen rules "broken" it's to permit people to shoot what they have without forking out $$$ on the same gear as everyone else has.

Another that I've seen is people being forgiving of a first shot sighter misses and instead of recording the miss working to give them a hand to get on target.

I've never seen people clamping tops in but someone somewhere must find it useful.

As for attaching a plate to the forend rail. I cannot see that there should be any restriction on them in any rules as long as the resultant composite forend profile is still within the rules.

Personally when there's money on the table I adhere to the rules but i'm not beyond experimenting outside of the rules when there's no harm in it. That's where innovation comes from. Trying something different.

It's an interesting discussion on the other forum there about rules, interpretations, and enforcement.

There were a few issues at the recent TRA Nationals which need some serious clarification.

According to the rulebook, the foreend must be either flat or convex. So one guy turns up with a foreend attachment for his Anschutz target rifle which is essentially two pieces of thick solid rod with a plate between them (it was a bit better machined than this, but you get the idea of the concept). So a protest was lodged as the foreend wasn't flat or convex. The protest committee ruled that the foreend fit within the definition of the rule as there was no rule to say "convex across the entire width" of the stock. So it was overturned on a technicality.

So the stocks can ride on rails, so long as the rails are convex, which is not in the _spirit_ of the rules.

Another is this eternal debate over whether the benchresters can have unlimited sighters, and go back to them _at any time_ whilst shooting each target for score, in a similar manner to RBA. On my reading of the TRA rulebook, I say we can, as there is no phrase including "consecutive" in the course of fire rules. Look them up. They only say 20 shots for score plus unlimited sighters. If the COF rules state "20 consecutive shots for score", then I'd agree that returning to sighters is illegal, but this isn't the case.

If I went back to my sighters, was called out, and appealed the decision, I'd be in the right. But, someone raised the issue on the firing line, and the RO said "20 consecutive shots", so I queried him on it. His reply? "We're shooting by the UIT rules first, then TRA rules". But the comp being contested was the TRA Nationals, and so the TRA Rulebook takes precedence over the ISSF Rulebook, and I contend that we can go back to our sighters, just like the RBA.

I was gonna continue the argument with the RO at the time by replying "Ok then, if we're shooting UIT first, then I want to shoot the prone target rifle targets, rather than the 20-shot Benchrest targets". That's 5 shots into a black disk, times 4 disks = 20 shots.

Also, there were occasions where shooters did not shoot the targets correctly. Like, putting sighters into the name area _outside_ of the designated sighter targets. To me, those shots should have been scored shots. How would the scorers have known that the shooter had lined up on the left-most target, fired, noticed the shot went _way_ left due to the "breeze", and attempted the same target again, and again, and again, until one landed in the target scoring area? At club level, I might excuse that, with cautions and education, but at a National Championships? No way! You shoot the card correctly, or get penalised.

My take from all of the above? A lot of shooters do not know the rules they're shooting under.

rules may not be broken but you can bend them back and forth as much as you like.

m12vlp wrote:I'll talk F-Class here...
Personally when there's money on the table I adhere to the rules but i'm not beyond experimenting outside of the rules when there's no harm in it.

If I was running any type event as an RO, a bit of leniency during practice shoots but I agree,
once "there's money on the table" such as real comps like State or Nationals, they become black and white rules.

G"Day All,
Bec ,you have raised a few concerns there that I have had the same thoughts on this year.
We also had a shooter with the flat plate and a rod down each side attached to the forestock of his rifle and until the last two club shoots he changed it,I dont see how they could have allowed it as there is no way it is convex more on the side of concave,and in the rules theres a ruling about front rests not having any guiding means that would work with any addition,contour or dimension on the rifle to help it return to the firing position.
This setup would and did leave two big grooves in the bag and obviously helped the rifle return to poa.
I have also looked at the sighter vrs business target and I found the rule to be taken as you are not to return to the sighters after you begin the business target.
Quote- TRA Rule A.4.3.1-All sighting targets provided may only be used before firing a shot on the first competition target.
Now I know theres shooter who flaunt the rules and on a 20 shot 50mtr tra card its easy to swing back on the sighter but on electronics, its impossible, Ive personally never done it.!!
The practice of putting extra sighter targets on the paper was seen just recently at our club when one of the blokes that shoots a million sighters put his first shot high and had to tell the RO that it was a sighter and not a business shot,so yeah I see the point of that,Gee if you cant get your gun on target with three sighter targets, GIVE UP.!!
I agree alot of shooters dont know the rules and never bother to read them, I have noticed the more succesful a shooter becomes, the more they tend to examine the rules to keep others from cheating and catchting them.
I dont care if it club, state or nationals,the rules are there to be followed, I shoot because I love to and i like to be competitive, theres no room for those that just want to bend the rules or just annoy others trying.
Regards
Native

Bec if that forend plate with the rails got through that's disgusting. Someone needs to be slapped for that. Hard.


As for the returning to sighters once on the business card I wasn't aware of the rule not permitting it but in respect to shooting on electronics it makes sense so I could happily live with it.

Native - I didn't see that rule you posted up! I was only going off the rules in Section A.6.5. Next time I see the guys in the club I shoot at, i'll discuss it with them. One of them suggested at the Nats that there are rules in ISSF that stops return to sighters.

I haven't returned to sighters either once starting along the Benchrest card, as the rest I'm using (a Farley) doesn't cover the whole card. So I have to move the rear bag to get the rifle to sight into the sighters. In the end, I don't bother. I understand the limitation for the electronic targets, and often sit with my finger ready to press that button, and wonder whether I should put just one more sighter down!

I was thinking that I should put a plate under my benchrest rifle which has two triangles underneath. At the end of the day, how close do you want to go to prove that the tips of these triangles are convex, because I could get a microscope out and prove that the ends would indeed be convex, but to all intents and purposes, the rifle would be riding on rails, as (and as Native pointed out) the bag woudl quickly conform to the tips.

But I wont do that, because at the end of the day, it's not within the spirit or intent of the rules.

SnipeWench wrote: My take from all of the above? A lot of shooters do not know the rules they're shooting under.

Well Bec as you progress you will I am sure change that opinion. In my experience a lot of shooters know the rules because you have to know them to manipulate them to suit your needs.
I can give you tons of examples of shooters manipulating the rules to gain advantage (or at least a perceived advantage) and it happens in all disciplines and in fact in all sports.

It is a sad truth that many people will do whatever it takes to get across the line.

The written rules are not the problem, it is the unwritten rules or the interpretation of rules that causes the most problems.

There are two things that should have never been written into rules and should be removed, that being " deemed to be of an unfair advantage" and "at the discretion of the organizers". What is "unfair advantage"? I could say that it might be a brand of barrel. It is far too open to abuse and has been all too often used in cases of conflicts of personality. As for "at the discretion of the organizers" or words to that effect, you either run a match as it should be run, or you relinquish that right.

The one that pisses me off is the "If it's not in the rule book it's illegal". I've had the National CRO pull that one !!!!!!!

Matt P

SnipeWench wrote:It's an interesting discussion on the other forum there about rules, interpretations, and enforcement.

There were a few issues at the recent TRA Nationals which need some serious clarification.

According to the rulebook, the foreend must be either flat or convex. So one guy turns up with a foreend <snip>

This gave me a curious thought. My RF is Match54 in an 1813 3P stock. Thus it has the accessory rail fitted. Clearly this is not a flat stock but a concave one, the accessory rail providing a narrow channel between the outside timber "rails". Apart from me being a drug cheat this clearly also counts me out!

Oh well back to plinking for fun

I've seen plenty of the 3P/prone rifles converted to benchrest rifles and shot off rests, even though the accessory rail is still there.

It's possible to get a filler piece for the accessory rail, but the majority of people make 3" plates that attach to the rail, so their rifles conform to the rules.