Q 500m Fly Spotting Scopes & Cartridges

[Ned Kelly]

G’Day all,
After my 2nd only 500m fly match last weekend, I was struggling to see my 6mm bullet holes with my NF12-42x BR scope and 32x Bushnell spotting scope. I have done some thinking and want to ask the 500m fly shooting community about the gear they use:

•Which make and models of spotting scope are preferred on the firing line today, and are they good enough to see 6mm holes at 500m?

•Which larger bore cartridges are popular in LG. If I chamber a new barrel it will be fitted to a LBRP Panda (no ejector) I was thinking 284W with 162amax might fit the bill.

Any suggestions and help offered will be greatly appreciated

Cheerio Geoff

[RDavies]

Would you need all the power of a 284 for 500M? I am building a 7mm/08 and thought it would be good for 500M shooting. Bigger bullets holes than 6mm, so more likely to be able to see them. Slightly less powder, recoil and barrel heating might make it easier to get your shots away quicker, maybe a poofteenth more precise as well?

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day Rod (is it?)
Yeah, given I have a 6x47 lapua, its (on paper at least) pretty impressive out to 1000yds and it has performed well for me out to 800yds. Realistically, it means I dont really need another FO barrel, but I had considered the bigger bore barrel would do double duty in 500m Fly and FO past 700yds thereby sparing the 6mm tube. Also any new barrel would have to be a significant ballistic improvement over the 6x47 lapua otherwise it would not be really practical/cost effective, especially down south of the Great Dividing Range where the wind doth blow..usually straight from the Antartic!

I have actually been considering most of the points you've made and they are definately valid points, especially when shooting a 17lb LG off a bench. Even looked at the 260Rem and briefly at the 7-08. Perhaps I should be using the 7-08 exclusively for 500m Fly instead of the 6x47, leaving more life in the 6mm tube for all my FO shooting.......

I'll crunch the figures again for the 7-08 and who knows maybe with a 28" barrel it will pick up a little performance to narrow the gap with the 284W......on paper of course!

Thanks for the tip

Also any ideas on Spotting scopes? I've been eying off the Nikon RAIIIWP 20-60x for 500m fly? It's probably a lot better than my old Bushnell 32x scope.

Cheerio Geoff

[malcolm]

Gidday Ned, re- your spotting scope issue, mortgage the house and buy the best one you can. A few of the boys use Zeiss, some of the lads use Leica, other shooters use Kowa's. When the mirage kicks in at 500 metres only the very best lenses and undamaged young eyes will see bullet holes at this distance.
I've been tossing around, with different scopes for a while now and I'm in the process of ordering from the USA, now that the dollar is good. The Zeiss 85mm scopes with a 20-60 eyepiece have increased nearly $1,000.00 in just over 12 months.
Cheers Malcolm

[Curtley78]

G'day Ned,

In regard to seeing 6mm holes at 500 meters my observations have been that you have better chance if they are moly coated, however at mid day and once the mirage is on the boil you will be hard pressed to see anything.

In regard to caliber, I began using a 6mm 284 and really struggled to find the fall of shot, I then upgraded to a Nightforce 12-42 and only noticed minimal improvement.

I am now running a Stolle chambered in 7mm08 IMP and have noted a substantial improvement in my shooting-being able to distinctly observe your shot on target makes all the difference, as for the optics, I am using a Leupold 36X.

The 7mm08 IMP is a sensational caliber and very efficient when compared to others such as the 6.5 X 284. It has capability of driving every projectile from 130 grn BT Speers to 175 grn Sierra MK's and I have also recently developed a couple of loads using 150 SMK's and the 175 SMK's (the 7mm08 IMP will stabilise a 175 SMK in a 1 in 10 twist barrel).

Being able to see you fall of shot whether by using Moly, a larger projectile or quality optics I think is a good starting point.

Regards

Sean

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day Sean,
can you advise the MV's with the bullet weights you are getting with the 7-08IMP? I'd like to compare drift to the 284W.
I'm using moly on my 6x47lapua and it didn't make much difference. Mind you I think it is a case of all those factors of improved optics, moly and larget holes. It has been suggested I use a 45-70, but I think the drift will be an issue..............
Thanks for your input,
Cheerio Ned

[trevort]

Ned, I reckon you know the answers to your own questions as your more knowledgable about target shooting than most of the blokes on here.

JR and others have advised calibre choice is based around the quality of brass and quality of pills available. Are you happy with the quality of available 7mm target pills?

Jugs is playing with a 30 cal in an improved 6.5x284 case. I would guess it would be on the recoil limit for an accurate LG but thats just a guess, ask him! At least easier to see holes.

Now you could do me a favour and buy the gun I was shooting (2 6x47ls would be neat eh? ). I think mediocre is the height of my capabilities and I would rather go back to bunnies etc

[Tony Z]

Doing well at 500M BR is more about bullets IMO. Most of the barrels these days are great, some cartidge cases are better than others but to a certain extent can be segregated enough to get a batch of reasonable quality.
The bullets i would consider would be the 168 7mm SMK, a very few good batches of 7mm 162 Amax, the 175 and 200 SMKs in the 30 cal range. The six mil 107/105 from Sierra or Lapua are too much of a hit and miss affair. The 6.5s are just too vertical in switching winds and shoot slants in crosswinds. The Lapua breed of 30 cal pils i have had zero to do with but others like Rinso have had good success with them. What i find that is the extreme wrong way to go with this sort of shooting is the belief that the high BC is the Holy Grail. I think that those that do consistently well in this game are those that have the best accuracy that is the least twitchy in the tricky winds. If you can get the rifle performing accurately and precisely, and that is the key, then you can do away with the need to have to see every shot on the record target. It is when the combination performs poorly that i keep hearing of the need to see bullet holes.
I have shot the 6x47 head to head with my 6BR leading up to this years array of matches shot at 500M and 1K. The 6BR was the choice i went with and i would think that the list of achievements that that little cartridge has given me this year should speak for itself. At no time have i been able to see a single bullet hole at either yardage, yet the scores have gottem more consistent and the groups continue to shrink as i learn more about the bullets. That is the key. Two matches with two successive groups under the inch at 500 meters is a pretty good indication that the combination is working.
My direction would be to pick a bullet, then build the gun around it. That is exactly what JR did with his HG and it to has a very impressive list of achievemnets where, like me, he doesn't even try to see bullet holes.

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day all,
Malcolm, yeah I was afraid someone would say that! I'm looking at the Nikon RAIII82 with 20-60X eye piece at the moment, as I have a couple of barrels that also need chambering before the new year. the fact that i can digiscope with this as well is kinda nice for the cost, good enough to pick out 6mm bullet holes? Probably better than my 20+ year old 32x Bushnell spotter!

Trevor, its all about practice for competition and applying previous experiences to the event of the day, I've found a lot of my SR BR can be applied in part to F class and 500m fly. I'm still learning but the strategies appear to be similar.

I've tried to shoot 2 spotters on a condition that looks good, especially when the mirage "looks the same", get 3 shots on paper, fire a spotter if the condition still looks the same (usually it isn't), and finish off the group. I dont worry about trying to get small group, I want points. I always try to shoot as fast as I can as this seems to reduce the amount of time and therefore change in wind drift between sighters if you know what I mean. It seems to work in F class, but not when the winds are swirling or switching quickly!

However, I reckon that it's probably better to start with only one sighter and try and save it for later on if the conditions are against you. So maybe trying to shoot 1 sighter, 2 record, another sighter, 2 more record then one sighter and one record to finish. Having 2 sighters to spare is probably a good thing, especially when you cannot see the bullet holes in the target or switching winds.

I did have a good chat to Jugs about his 30-284 but punching in data to the sierra ballistic program has me thinking that a 7mm will be better for drift & recoil also it has to have less drift than my 6x47 lapua and good barrel life wouls be nice too. Will the 1mm bigger hole make a difference, I dunno, but another .62mm probably wont either, it would be another factor that makes a difference, like Tony Z says, the bullet quality, and availablity, against by recoil and torque effects.

Anyway Trev, I think you underestimate yourself Remember its quality trigger time that makes the difference and I know it is often very hard to get. Not to mention the cost of getting it.......trigger time that is

Never Give Up!

Tony Z, I think you are on the right track, high BC is good but if the bullet wont shoot or is wind sensitive when out of tune then what's the point. If the bullet isn't built right then you are in a lot of trouble. My other concerns are the recoil effect in a 17lb LG as well as the torque reaction of heavier bullets like the 180gn 7mm berger in a conventional BR styled stock. At what point would an offset stock be logical, I mean I doubt you would use one with a 6BR but probably would with a 284W and 180gn bergers.

I currently run 107gn SMK in my 6x47 lapua but haven't yet tried the amax's or 103gn copperheads. I plan to in the new year in a new barrel. As you say accuracy and precision are 2 different things but without both shooting small groups is impossible.

I also would like to have a cartridge that will double in 500m Fly and beyond 700yds in F class that is an "off the shelf" performer that means readily available dies, good brass and bullets just to keep it "relatively" simple

Probably an impossible quest and maybe I should stick to the 6x47mm lapua!

Thanks for all the help

Cheerio Ned

[albow]

that is an "off the shelf" performer that means readily available dies, good brass and bullets just to keep it "relatively" simple

What!! no necking down forming a false shoulder, fire forming or custom dies where's the fun in that

C'mon Ned go a wildcat you know you want to.....

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day Albow,
the crazy part of me only extends to the idea of hitting the same point all the time! The engineer part then takes over and tries to make it happen!
Cheerio Ned

[Rinso]

Ned,
A lot of good info in here already and I will repeat some of it.
There are good components everywhere but your action, barrel and stock MUST be well fitted and balanced.
A clean barrel shoots better and a well maintained rifle is a must.
I agree with Tony in so far as good bullets make a big difference as does good brass.
The thing Tony did not mention and which I am certain he will agree with is preparation ie qualify your bullets, your brass everything. You cant just load from the packet into any case and hope it works. The cases maust be turned properly and accurately, primer pockets even and square etc etc
Many of us run bullets over a juenke as part of the sorting and qualifying process, in fact if you want to shoot tight I think a juenke is a must have item (more so than a spotting scope)
Great batches of bullets still need attention to detail to make the most of the opportunities that present.
Find a calibre you like size of bullet hole doesnt make enough difference to really matter, I would stick with the 6x47L and work on the other parts more.
As for optics I have a 20-60 Vortex spotting scope that does the job. Its not a Zeiss but its not as pricey either. End of the day if you have done all the other bits right seeing bullet holes is a bonus as the group will still be there. If you want I will even sell you my spotting scope I dont use it that much anyway.

Main thing is keep on swinging and having fun and you learn everytime to go to the firing line.

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day Rinso,
that was the other thing I thought might come up was sorting bullets. I am a little reluctant to get into pointing bullets and inspecting on a juenke (even though we use ultrasonic inspection processes in my line of work to detect flaws in aircraft) If I had to I'd consider weight, bearing surface and OAL. I seem to recall a.JR wrote an article on bullet selection and simply to find the time to sort bullets is going to be difficult especially when I find it hard enough to find time to Shoot!

I do a full BR prep of my cases and that seems to have helped a lot, even a 95% skim cut with the neck turner. I use the Redding competition FLS Type S die and Redding Competition seater, run out is less than 0.001" with the Sierra 107MK, Better bullets like the 103 Copperheads would probably make a difference.

So of the basic sorting processes do you use for bullets other than using a juenke. Do you point them up or trim the meplats or both?

Bullet sorting isn't writen about all that much in Precision Shooting mag or on the internet.........unless I'm looking in the wrong places! Any suggestions apart from 6BR.com or BR Central as websites to look at?

Thanks for the advice.

Cheerio Ned

[jimbo]

As you know, I was there at that last Fly Shoot at Little River, and I got to have a look through a variety of optical devices. The only one that even looked like showing me bullet holes through the mirage was that Carl Zeiss spotting scope thing that someone had.

Why not purchase the new 8 to 80x March scope and have the best of both world's? Buy the best and only cry once.

BA

[Ned Kelly]

G'Day BA,
have you looked through the 8-80 March? Is it as good as a ziess 20-60 in resolving bullet holes at 500m?

As for crying, I've done it twice and I dont think i can stand any further trauma!

Admittedly, I'd prefer the optics on the rifle not a tripod for faster shooting!

Cheerio Ned