AusVarmint

G"day All
I would like to know a bit more about what makes an accurate rimfire barrel.
I know the question is a bit broad but any info would be good.
Now I see the different makers have them available in 14/16 twist rates and in 3 & 4 groove rifling, also obviously different lenghts and tapers.
Then there is the machining work including,chamber & crown.
Why is it that custom barrels are considered superior when they say companies like walther,anschutz and the like have won world records,do they rebarrel the actions.??
Can you have a good rimfire barrel that will get better results with a re- chambering to a specific ammo.??
Whats considered the best rimfire barrel length.??
I have never really thought about rimfire barrels and now that I have been looking it seems theres a lot more to it.!!
Can you get good and bad custom barrels.??(ie-ten barrels from one company and a few maybe exceptional.??).
Is a shorter heavy barrel considered more accurate than a longer heavy barrel.??.
Just a few questions to get things started.
Regards
native.
PS- Yes and of course the ammo.!!

Your a bad man Damien




Regards Chris.

Chris-What are you implying.??
Why I asked, is to learn.!!!
Native

As far as factory barrels/rifles go, for BR purposes, the Suhl 150s, the 52Ds and the Walther IM are probably the most accurate rifles ever built. The Suhl 150s had an error, or so it has been stated, that there was a certain number in a certain year that were single point rifled with a slippage in the sine bar that led to a 17 twist barrel being produced. This is what it is assumed was the reason why the likes of Lilja and others went to the 17 twist rates as no custom barrel could match these Suhl barrels in competition.
The early Anshutz 54s were hit and miss, one in every two would shoot good, the other was pretty odinary. The 2007s and 13s are overrated junk and benefit greatly from the clamp slot spray welded up and the bore threaded and a barrel screwed in. Many yank smiths did this to get the things to shoot aggs, but only after the barrels were dumped in favor of something like a Hart of Lilja. I did this to one 2007 and it still shot like junk until the barrel was replaced with a Maddco. The Sako i did in this fashion was a stunner first up, but it too had the barrel binned in favor of a Maddco. Young Darren Cherry has this rifle now and it still pisses a lot of people off with the way it can shoot jelly beans into a hole at both yardages.

With rimfires, and the reason i flat refuse to work on one anymore, is that there are no set formulas to get one to shoot. There is a Swindlehurst floating about Queensland somewhere that has the best of everything and wouldn't make a good sparrow gun with $50 a box ammo. Then there are sleepers that look like junk, like that old space gun of Peter Flemming's, but shoot dots at both yardages. There is no guarantee that anyone can build a winner every time. The ammo to barrel combination is the major downfall and is the primary reason why tuners are a must. One thing that i can say with certainty is that at any era of rimfire shooting anywhere in the world, the biggest single component that governs what makes a winning rifle, is the quality of the ammo about duuring that period. There was a time when a certain batch, or batches of Tenex (1042, 1046) were sort after, then it was Federal 900A (253, 754, 1026) and now it is ????. Expensive, so it has to be good. So everything is blamed except the overpriced, under performing ammo. A typical case of Alpha Romeo syndrome where i paid a shit load, so it has to be good.

HHMMM,Rimfires sure do sound like a nasty affliction.!!!,One im still going to chase.!
I have purchased a 1913BR50, hence my questions on barrels,Im yet to shoot it.!!
One of the blokes here has a ?52d reamer and the two rifles I know are chambered with it, shoot usually in the top three every shoot.
I selected the 54 action over the 20 series due to the amount of people experiencing difficulty in getting them to consistently shoot,I suppose the 54 round action has the runs on the board as such,Just hope the barrel in mine is a good one or it will be getting replaced down the track,even though i have no idea what to replace it with,Im really putting the cart before the horse without shooting the gun yet.
I can see me spending alot of $$$ on ammo in the next 12 months.!!
Regards
native

Boy this is going to take awhile, look in you original post for my thoughts, every shooter / smith has their own thoughts, from the start I must say I believe in Bill Calfee's work. I read and follow his thoughts a great deal right down to the auotgraphed copy of his book. The other thing is I follow USA trends, why? because at the last world titles in Italy a 3 man team from the US using Calfee rifles won nearly everthing had 2 members in the top 3 nearly every time, just dominated. I say copy what works.

native hunter wrote: I would like to know a bit more about what makes an accurate rimfire barrel. As Tony said Good ammo first.

Now I see the different makers have them available in 14/16 twist rates and in 3 & 4 groove rifling, also obviously different lenghts and tapers. 2,3,4,5 and 6 groove barrels are available, by in large 3,4 and 5 groove work the best. I use 4 groove lilja or at the moment 5 groove Broughton until I can get a 4 groove broughton. Twist rates have gone from 14 up to 17.5, 17 and 17.5 twist barrels have trouble stabilizing the bulits at certain air temps. I use 16 or 16.5. The other bit you have not mentioned is land profile the brought 5c or the Shilen ratchet are prefered at the moment. Barrel profile I will only use straight profile because removeing metal from the outside of the barrel makes the inside bigger (buttoned and cut barrels) why that is bad I will cover later.

Then there is the machining work including,chamber & crown. Chamber and crown location on every single barrel will be different and is critical to get correct.

Why is it that custom barrels are considered superior when they say companies like walther,anschutz and the like have won world records,do they rebarrel the actions.?? They win gold medals and set records because every rifle is tested before they leave the shop floor, the very best a kept back for sponsored shootors and teams, you or I will never get one.

Can you have a good rimfire barrel that will get better results with a re- chambering to a specific ammo.?? Yes and No, if you go from a hunting chamber to a target chamber you will get improvment. If you go from an old tapered chamber to the new parrell chamber you will get improvement. I use a Eley specific reamer but my rifles always shoot better with Lapua, go figure. The other thing if the crown and chamber are in the wrong spots changing them will improve things

Whats considered the best rimfire barrel length.??:) What the barrel tells you is correct, you need the chamber in a nice even part of the barrel only slightly (0.002 thou) bigger than the crown end. You want the crown to be at the tightest and roundest part of the barrel as possible, about 24" is considered ideal but anywhere from 22 - 26 will do.

I have been looking it seems theres a lot more to it.!! Yes there is.

Can you get good and bad custom barrels.??(ie-ten barrels from one company and a few maybe exceptional.??). Yes but I will usally have it worked out which is the best well before the first shot is fired. I have not had one worse than a factory barrel.

Is a shorter heavy barrel considered more accurate than a longer heavy barrel.??. No either can be accurate, a longer barrel will be easier to tune however. I however only use skinny barrels .850" normally.

Just a few questions to get things started.
Regards
native.
PS- Yes and of course the ammo.!!

They Key differance between a big factory and the smaller custom barrels is lapping, removing the maching marks from the barrel, the custom guys hand lap a taper into the barrel to induce a choke at the crown this makes them better for potential accuracy, but they can still mess it up.

I hope this does not confuse the situation.
Brett

Thanks brett,I have been reading calfee's musings on rimfire accuracy and jeeez,theres lots to read.!!
So,If one was to purchase a custom barrel,what would people here recommend.??(twist,length,chamber type,brand,how many groove.??) & why.!!
Regards
Native

native hunter wrote:Thanks brett,I have been reading calfee's musings on rimfire accuracy and jeeez,theres lots to read.!!
So,If one was to purchase a custom barrel,what would people here recommend.??(twist,length,chamber type,brand,how many groove.??) & why.!!
Regards
Native

Buy a custom action first. then the old rule of save till you can afford a scope.

For me there are 2 new barrels under development in the states at the moment Lilja 4 groove version of the ratchet, and the broughton 4 groove version of the canted lands (Ratchet) that would be on my whish list. 16.5 twist 0.850dia straight. Lenght as I said what the barrel tells me, Chamber Calfee straight sided reamer with 2 deg leed.
Having said that I have not played with a madco for a while and the new run of barrels are getting great reports. The Border (cut rifled) i worked on was great and is shooting some good numbers but was a special order with heaps of choke in it. Lilja is always reliable.
Brett

After this weekend just gone, I'll keep my lilja barrel for the moment, thanks

- bec

Let me go back in time for a moment. The Walthers, the 52Ds, the Suhls were about for a very long time. So were some very good custom actions and barrels. Then came along a very widely accepted and respected form of competition that had the ammunition makers develop ammo up to a standard that had to meet the requirement of the demanding style of target. So why did all of a sudden these old clunker rimfires of yesteryear blossom? It wasn't because some fool came along and sprouted crap about barrel tapers and throat angles and barrel tuners or twist rates and groove configurations. It was because the new breed of ammo took full advantage of the very finest built rimfires of that time, and then some. Given those rifles now, and given the quality ammo that was once made, rimfires are placed on a more equal playing field. Now it is about who can find the hidden formula to unlock the code in the way of the magic batch number.

Let me put that all in another way. The barrel makers today can all produce barrels that drive the very best bullets spun to extreme rpms in a centerfire application, and do it to such a fine tolerance that groups under a hundred thou are shot regularly at a 100 yards. So if these barrel makers can do this with that barrel, it is then only logical that they strive to the same standards in the production of the rimfire barrel, is it not? So what is the difference between the centerfire and the rimfire in terms of performance, given conditions were perfect for shooting? The ammo.

So how do you make the rimfire shoot better? Improve the ammo and not alter the things that define what makes a centerfire work. Well Calfee himself sprouts that what works in a rimfire is applicable in a centerfire in terms of harmonics. So if he is right then either the centerfire guys have it fucked up, or Calfee is just good at repeating a given formula for a rimfire, which by the way is sold with a batch number to the ammo best suited to that particular rifle. You use something else, and the rifle shoots like a scatter gun, as some have complained openly on forums, then don't blame Calfee.


Now lets look at another aspect that few may know of or maybe i will remind you of. In the late 90s, or about the peak of BR50, there was a demand from many for an even better ammo to be developed and sold at a reasonable price. Well such an ammo was developed. It had a dimpled primer, it had a harder bullet metal, it had a higher volume powder and what air void was left was taken up with a filler to do two things. It kept the powder level and in contact at all times with the primer and it also buffered the bullet base from extreme obturation from the pressure build up thus giving a more pristine bullet base for more consistent flight and muzzle exit. This ammo was tested and reported to shoot consistently under a half inch at a 100 yards. Not sometimes, but consistently under the half inch mark. It never got to the sale stage as the estimated cost in US dollars was well over $20. No-one would pay that then as Eley Gold, specifically developed for BR50 was under $10. So the blueprint is there, but the market says no and in a few years time, the best ammo ever made in the Federal line was discontinued because it was deemed to be made at a loss to the factory and was only ever produced to help the US team win at the 96 Olympics. So what this told me then was that makers were not interested in providing the best ammo they could, but were willing to sell a compromise at a profit and that the rimfire shooters were left to make or find ways to get the sub standard ammo to perform to an acceptable level.

So development and barrel choice or configuration has nothing to do with it. It is like i always said about Calfee, just pure speculation. Just like the name of his rifles. He is laughing at us all.

native hunter wrote:G"day All
I would like to know a bit more about what makes an accurate rimfire barrel.
I know the question is a bit broad but any info would be good.
Now I see the different makers have them available in 14/16 twist rates and in 3 & 4 groove rifling, also obviously different lenghts and tapers.
Then there is the machining work including,chamber & crown.
Why is it that custom barrels are considered superior when they say companies like walther,anschutz and the like have won world records,do they rebarrel the actions.??
Can you have a good rimfire barrel that will get better results with a re- chambering to a specific ammo.??
Whats considered the best rimfire barrel length.??
I have never really thought about rimfire barrels and now that I have been looking it seems theres a lot more to it.!!
Can you get good and bad custom barrels.??(ie-ten barrels from one company and a few maybe exceptional.??).
Is a shorter heavy barrel considered more accurate than a longer heavy barrel.??.
Just a few questions to get things started.
Regards
native.
PS- Yes and of course the ammo.!!

G'day Native,

There is a formula to making an accurate rimfire.

Having a background working with knives I can tell you that the grade of steel makes all the difference. The Boners and Slicers would always be on the Scout for a steel known as a 'Pipe' steel-these if I recall correctly were manufactured prior to World War I.

First and foremost the grade of steel, the degree to which it was tempered, followed by the precision used in rifling the barrel followed by the smith in finishing the barrel. As an example the older the barrel, the better the steel-in fact there are numerous international shooters attempting to source the older Walther and Anschutz barrels due to this fact-unfortunately there are not too many left hence why most shooters have to settle with Lilja etc.

The reason as to why the some rifles shoot and some don't also relates to the degree and rate in which the billet of steel cooled in the smelter and as to how it was tempered etc in the factory. Metallurgics. The harder the steel, the greater the ability the rifling has of spinning the bullet and 'retaining its edge' as opposed to wearing out over time.

I have 5 Match grade rifles in the vault-4 of which are original. A Bruno model 4 Match (1958), Anschutz 1413 Super match (1963) a custom Bruno model 4 with a Lilja barrel, a Walther 3P and I have just taken ownership of a pristine Walther (which has HH rather then a year stamp).

The most accurate two rifles that I own are the Walther and the Anschutz. Both of these rifles have exceptionally long barrels as opposed to the short thick Lilja Bull barrel.

In regard to Anschutz re barreling rifles, during for the Rome Olympics Anschutz produced 10 hammer forged thick bull barrels that were twice the diameter and shorter then standard-they too like to experiment.

I wouldn't buy a new 20 series-like Tony Z said the 'The 2007s and 13s are overrated junk' and I certainly wouldn't be running a new factory Anschutz barrel. The quality is no longer there nor the quality control measures.

Finally, the quality of the ammunition is equally important as spending numerous hours at the range to find exactly what the rifle prefers and developing your technique and routine. As for batch numbers, I once ran Eley & Tennex with great success, however having to always source batched ammunition with the right speed from the right machine became annoying and proved to me that their ammunition was inconsistent and of a poor quality-hence why I no longer use it.

Regards

Sean

Tony Z wrote: Now it is about who can find the hidden formula to unlock the code in the way of the magic batch number.

So what is the difference between the centerfire and the rimfire in terms of performance, given conditions were perfect for shooting? The ammo.

Calfee is just good at repeating a given formula for a rimfire, which by the way is sold with a batch number to the ammo best suited to that particular rifle.

So development and barrel choice or configuration has nothing to do with it.

Mostly I agree, ammo is key. From my 2 short years of Rimfire shooting,
Firstly a wonderful couple using Bruno or Bruno clone actions, border barrels were winning or torwards the top at every comp. They had tested eley at SISC and have thier tagets on the door to show how good the ammo was. Now I am guessing they have run out of that good lot, and they are really having trouble staying in the top 15 at the moment.
Secondaly, the best young shooter going around at the moment was not doing anything special last couple years, lately has been winning everthing, but sadly he is about to run out a special lot number be interesting to see how things go at next nationals because he should have just about run out of the good stuff after NZ.

At the moment Calfee rifles are not sold matched to lot numbers, matched to a brand yes but not a lot number. He does work to a formula, I have been lucky enough to be given very strick instructions (formula) from the man himself and biuld a US spec sporter to his exacting instructions, after he had inspected the barrel. That job was not done to a Lot number but the rifle performs and time will tell how good it is.

I disagree that barrel choice and configuration have nothing to do with it. I can show you 3 factory barrels that are very bad and no matter how good the ammo these things will not shoot.
I build my rifle and those I build for others so that they shoot good with any middle to top line ammo and if they find a special batch they will set records.

But again you are correct on any given day ammo and shooter ability will outclass the best equipment on the line.

Brett

G'Day All
Let me see if I can break this down.!!
Ammo=60%
Barrell=20%
Ability=20%
Seems the more money spent on ammo and trial and error experiments is the real way to get a rimfire to shoot ,providing its of good quality to start with.
It really does look like rimfire rifle shooting is hit and miss for a better term,some expensive outfits shoot exceptional,some dont and never will.
Question-What degree of accuraccy is determined to be exceptional.? what sort of groups would need to be obtained consistently to say you had a combination that would be competitive.??
Regards
Native

I'd think ability would be way up there too.

It's no good having a schmick rifle if you can't pick the breeze and shoot it consistently in that breeze, or are affected by nerves to the point you freeze up in major comps.

As I've found out, just get out there and shoot in as many comps as you can, get the match "fitness" up, and have fun

I know I am

- bec

native hunter wrote:G'Day All
Let me see if I can break this down.!!
Ammo=60%
Barrell=20%
Ability=20%
Seems the more money spent on ammo and trial and error experiments is the real way to get a rimfire to shoot ,providing its of good quality to start with.
It really does look like rimfire rifle shooting is hit and miss for a better term,some expensive outfits shoot exceptional,some dont and never will.
Question-What degree of accuraccy is determined to be exceptional.? what sort of groups would need to be obtained consistently to say you had a combination that would be competitive.??
Regards
Native

Its hard to break down but I look at it like this. The rifle as a whole needs to be better then just good. That is the complete package, action (ignition) Barrel, scope, stock (shape and bedding), trigger and tunner. Then you need good BR equipment Rest / Bags and flags. Then you need trigger time to get used to it all and set the tunner just right. After all that to win its 60% ability 40% ammo. But I always buy ammo towards to top of the price range and use Lapua not Eley but that is another story.
However I have been smashed by cheep ammo in windy conditions because I could not read it.
Another example from my experience IRB nationals early this year. there were 3 kids shooting Annie 64 Br rifles and shooting quite poor scores but having fun. During the last detail of the comp I set my rifle up on a spare bench and got the 3 kids to shoot on a IRB card. I had my wind flags out and told them where to aim and when to pull the trigger. 1 shot 100/100 the other 2 shot 98/100, the whole card combined was better than I had shot that day. They were very happy. Without the correct equipment you are lost.

As for accuraccy a custom rifle will not leave my shop without consistantly shooting 0.300 CTC, my own rifle hold 0.200 with my best ammo at the moment 0.250 with whatever I can get in Eley Black or Red or Lapua midas or Xact.

Brett