New f class rifle vs second hand

[Mullet]

Sooo...if the omark is a Fiat 650 2-stroke with a broken exhaust and the RPA Quadlight is like an 2008 AMG Merc, what is a custom Viper action like?

Something way too tight to lay in the dirt with.

[Blackpete]

cirus,
just remember that it's not the car that counts so much, it's how well you can steer it.

that Albow bloke may "only" have a Fiat but he drives it better than some drive Ferrari's, and i know of a few others that drive (less than desirable) "cars" quite well.

if budget is a problem their's no shame in starting off with something like an Omark, get it trued and bedded properly, match it up with a good barrel, stock & reasonable scope and start learning.

i've been learning for about six years now and i've only JUST got my "P's".

pete.

[cirus]

Heheh yeah i get that, but by the time you buy a omark get it bedded and a new barrel etc by the sounds of it I'm better off going for a second hand custom like that RPA Quadlite. The custom viper does sound like another option but once you add the scope on that will be pushing...probably more than $4000?. Budget isn't really a problem at the moment but don't want to get too out of hand just yet

[AlanF]

Cirus,

Are you intending to shoot F-Std or F-Open? If you are in WA I believe F-Std has become more popular of late. And I think Bill Hallam is building some very good F-Std rifles there - used by some of the leading shooters, of which he is one himself. But I would expect them to be quite pricey. If you are just starting in F-Std, I'd advise buying a 2nd hand Omark with a reasonable barrel on it, buy your good scope now, have an experienced Omark gunsmith tweak or redo the bedding, and the nett cost of your first rifle will be quite low. If you decide to get a Hallam or similar rifle next, you will already have the scope, or if you give it away, there is always a market for a name brand scope such as NF, Leupold, Weaver, particularly if you choose a popular power and reticule.

You might want to ask the same question on ozfclass.com to get more opinions.

Alan

[Mick]

Sooo...if the omark is a Fiat 650 2-stroke with a broken exhaust and the RPA Quadlight is like an 2008 AMG Merc, what is a custom Viper action like?

Somewhere in the realm of fighter jet in comparison.
What Shane is offering is a top quality setup at a very good price.

[singleshot]

Sooo...if the omark is a Fiat 650 2-stroke with a broken exhaust and the RPA Quadlight is like an 2008 AMG Merc, what is a custom Viper action like?

Somewhere in the realm of fighter jet in comparison.
What Shane is offering is a top quality setup at a very good price.

I would'nt go that far Mick. I own a Diamondback and comparing it with the Quadlite, they are neck and neck as far as quality. Actions are actions and it is really a personal thing, so long as all is true and square and what you wish to use them for. I would not use the RPA in a bench gun, but for F Class it is great. Also, that McMillan stock has a lot of features.........but I am a little biased here.

My thoughts,
Cameron

[cirus]

Hrrrm very hard decisions , I'm pretty sure ill be shooting F standard. If anyone has anymore opinions that would be great. Cheers for all the replies

[Mick]

Sooo...if the omark is a Fiat 650 2-stroke with a broken exhaust and the RPA Quadlight is like an 2008 AMG Merc, what is a custom Viper action like?

Somewhere in the realm of fighter jet in comparison.
What Shane is offering is a top quality setup at a very good price.

I would'nt go that far Mick. I own a Diamondback and comparing it with the Quadlite, they are neck and neck as far as quality. Actions are actions and it is really a personal thing, so long as all is true and square and what you wish to use them for. I would not use the RPA in a bench gun, but for F Class it is great. Also, that McMillan stock has a lot of features.........but I am a little biased here.

My thoughts,
Cameron

And there's my bias.
I'm a BR shooter, but I have to agree, a good, trued action is as good as any other. Once you get to custom actions, and custom rigs in general, the biggest accuracy killer is the nut behind the bolt.

[albow]

Hi Cirus

The thing to remember is that if you are going to build a rifle on any action there are a few components and costs that will not change ie. cost of purchase and fitting a barrel will be the same cost for the build on any action.

but by the time you buy a omark get it bedded and a new barrel etc by the sounds of it I'm better off going for a second hand custom like that RPA Quadlite. The custom viper does sound like another option but once you add the scope on that will be pushing...probably more than $4000?. Budget isn't really a problem at the moment but don't want to get too out of hand just yet

The areas that I see is the biggest cost variation is in the action and stock that you choose. I used an Omark, had an adaptor made and the whole action trued. I also made my own stock and my whole rifle with everything except the scope cost me $1200....... for less than the cost of a custom action I got a rifle to get started shooting.

Now I'm first to admit my Omark is not as pretty as a polished stainless custom action or as slick as the custom action but works perfectly fine as others have indicated that the Omark actions do.

I suppose it depends on how much you really want to spend and how soon you want to start shooting. I know when I was looking for my Omark action SARA said they had full Omark based rifles with adaptor and pretty good nick barrels for around $600 - $750. As Alan F said this is a good way to get started because if you want to get something built you could be waiting a while as most smiths are pretty busy so I would not expect anything under 6 month wait.... Shane would be able to give you an idea on this.

Anyhow more food for thought

[Tony Z]

One of the major problems with why a new up and coming shooter balks initially is because of the things he or she is told by shooters that have little basic knowledge of why and how an action works. Things like what is required to deliver a group of suitable size in a consistant manner and being able to do so in varying temperatures. Actions like Rugers and Winchesters and others that are investment cast and finish machined in CNCs, are not able to consistantly deliver the requirements mainly due to their flawed vibration and direction control from the stresses of that casting process. The odd one is OK, but generally anything investment cast that has to fire enough shots that cause the metal to warm shows up as as a piece of crap. The groups open or walk or most often do both. Billet machined actions from solid or hollow bar stock are really where its at.

There is only one critical area of any action, and that is the tennon and lug areas. The rest is just a delivery support for a firing pin and could in all reality be made of wood if it didn't have to do the load bearing of barrel support. Those that have seen DGs old Ruger LG would recall it being of a blocked system. He used that action because it can extract ivory tusks from bulls, has a lock up like few, but he like i was aware of its inability to swing any barrel in a conventional form and maintain an acceptable level of consistant accuracy. But used in the manner he has, just a lock up and a firing pin delivery system, it sure is very competitive.

With the vast majority of the custom BR actions, they are little more than Rem 700 clones. A 700 bolt modified can be used to fit Farley, Viper and Stolle actions and with the Viper, they even use the 700 extractor. So you pay $2K and get an essentially complete 700 bolt with a 2 cent extractor and a slab sided receiver. But more importantly, these actions are built for speed with small cases and are generally not capable of reliably extracting anything much larger than 6BR when used with heavy loads and unpolished and non bumped cases. The Stolle extractor has been recently upgraded to a Sako type because the original early type would'nt pull a sailor off your sister. The Farley has recently been upgraded aswell. Of all the custom actions, the only ones worth considering for use outside of the PPC brigade, are the Diamondback, the Nesika and the BAT dual lug. The ones mentioned earlier have been adapted to the F Class task, but are not really designed for it. Stolle does now offer a F Class action that has a recoil lug integral in the alloy body whereas most other SR BR actions are designed to glue in and as such they do not have a recoil lug as part of their receivers.

As for the RPA and such, they have a home and its called Fullbore. Their design features are more centred around lock time and reduced bolt lift arc, not effort, because of the obvious limited physical constraints of those welding gloves and double breasted straight jackets they wear aswell as the need to avoid any disruption to their position on the ground. The Quadlock is in my view an absolute piece of overpriced garbage though any one dumb enough to pay that sort of money will never admit it and definetly suffers from Alfa Romeo syndrome. I paid heaps so its gotta be good. Quite rightly this action is headed for oblivion like the Millenium already has, so don't break nothin. Recently it was said that an RPA Quadlock action broke a Jewell trigger. Now i don''t know if this says more about the Jewell or the RPA. There must be a million Jewells out their and the only time i have ever seen or heard of one failing is when it was bolted to an RPA. Oblivion can't come too soon. The Quadlite is the light bulb moment that the poms had when they finally twigged to why the BR shooters use two lugs and are a decent action and will be the action that probably saves the company. Providing they sell them with a trigger hanger for Jewell etc, and not that gate latch they call a trigger. The Barnyard is one of the few that has crossed over a bit to both the Fullbore and BR ranks and is a good allround action with good extraction, a large bedding area and overall is a very simple and basic action. The trigger is workable.

If you are looking to F Standard then the requirements are, some sort of decent accuracy of around .5 MOA for 10 shots in either 308 or 223, a strong and reliable extraction, a reasonably quick lock time, a 1 kg trigger or one that can be adjusted to this, a reasonable area of the action for a good stable bedding platform aswell as some form of recoil lug when getting to the heavier recoiling cartidges.
Things that are not required are need for speed stuff like drop or multi ports.

I've mentioned the custom actions worth considering above, but as for the regular commercial actions there are a few worth the trouble.

Tikka 590 (T3) is worth a closer look. Small load port stiffens the action, slows the single shot loading, but we're not shooting fast for groups but more like the marker kid with his iPod set on 115 decibels, nice and ever sooooo slow. Great trigger, crisp and clean at 1 KG and the lock time of the firing pin is second to none in the commercial ranks. The tennon is 1 inch 16 TPI and is fine for 308 and the action OD will only allow a 30 mm diameter barrel at the chamber. Again this is fine. These actions in my experience are very true and require little work if any.

Savage 12 etc is a little different to many but the accuracy is legendary. Extraction is good, but there is better. The new triggers are good but the early actions are equiped with a real piece of crap. The early tennons are 1 inch 16 TPI and the late target actions are 1 1/16 inch and 16 TPI. The beauty of the Savage is the floating bolt head, like the Omark, which is what sets it apart in the accuracy stakes. These actions are so so and some are in need of some truing.

The Rem 700. Well anyone who knows anything about why an action works will tell you that with the time and money, there is no custom action that it cannot equal for outright accuracy, not speed. Strong extraction and lock up, fast lock time and a 1 1/16 x 16 TPI tennon. The extractor might be a 2 cent offering, but i have only heard of them failing when "accuracy gunsmiths" machine too much off the bolt nose and thus weaken the support area or you shot Polar bear on some iceberg and the spring steel becomes brittle from the cold and snaps. Otherwise bullet proof. But if you do really worry put in a Sako.
A standard 700 off the showroom floor is not a piece of crap and someone like Shane can true one up if you like for a reasonable cost. They need no sleeve to carry a barrel and shoot well with a Williamsport profile at 30 inches long contrary to what some will tell you. They have a good bearing area and respond to glueing in very well.

One thing we need to get clear here is the argument of money needing to be spent adds up to the cost of a custom action is again crap. This may be true if you want to shoot zeroes with a PPC, but a half minute is a world away from a zero. Keep this in perspective as i don't just reckon, but rather know that a stock 700 that is not fucked, handed to the right smith can get that .5 MOA or better more often than not if the barrel is any good. Any action that is fucked is just that. Fucked. And the recent trend is to get a custom action and blueprint them cause they aint perfect either. So how costly is that?

There are some very very good actions that Fullbore have discarded over the years, but are worth a much closer look.

Omark. Talk to alpal on this forum about that. But this is the only action that can rival any action for outright accuracy and consistancy (precision) of shot POI which is more important to LR BR. But it does require a fair amount of work aswell as an adaptor which is somewhat the Achilles heal with some of the offerings i have seen.

Neilson 300. A glorified Omark but with some benefits.

Neilson 600. Now this is a Barnyard without the extraction, but with the benefit of a floating bolt head. Omark bolthead, Omark trigger on most but with very ordinary extraction that can be greatly improved. This action can be made and is believed by many to be one of the most accurate Fullbore actions about. But they are relatively rare because their owners have'nt pegged out yet. In time they will and a few do turn up from time to time in estates. The actions are hardened to some ridiculous Rockwell and the only thing than shits me about them is their constant ability to break off the peaks of their tennon threads of 1 inch 14 TPI. These little bits can catch on the barrel and tear threads as the barrel is removed. Really fucks your day. Definetly not an action for a switch barrel rig.


After all this, at the end of the day just go out and buy a rifle like this one below.




My Savage FTR in 308. Or if you're looking at FO, the new Savage F Classer in 6 BR. They are not the greatest in all departments, but for the money you will never build an equivalent.

Tony Z.

[woob614271]

Thanks, Tony, thorough and to the point as usual.
I suspect you'll raise some responses with this post, but your wide experience is a valuable commodity to those who care to listen. Not always me, unfortunately...

[Klicker]

Tony,

I find you arguments really interesting, one of the best fullbore guys in my club uses a Neilsen to some rediculously good scores each week. But I find your comments on the savage very interesting, considering a lot of people seam to rubbish them, which is fair as they did have rubbish triggers on their older actions, I own both a model 12 in 22-250 and a mark 2 rimfire and the rifles are like chalk and cheese. (other than one being a centerfire and the other a rim).

I have been having the same dillema as Cirus on this same subject as well (First serious F-class rifle required dilemma) and was saving my pennies for a barnyard, but I might just bucket the whole idea and shoot a 6br savage for a few years until I find that I actually need a custom rig after your comments.

Thanks again for laying it all out in beginners terms for those of us on the bottom end of the target shooting fraternity.

[Mick]

One thing we need to get clear here is the argument of money needing to be spent adds up to the cost of a custom action is again crap. This may be true if you want to shoot zeroes with a PPC, but a half minute is a world away from a zero. Keep this in perspective as i don't just reckon, but rather know that a stock 700 that is not fucked, handed to the right smith can get that .5 MOA or better more often than not if the barrel is any good.

Pretty much.
My 700 holds under .2 MOA of elevation at 1K if I do my part.

[Blackpete]

Tony,
is it worth the trouble to put a Sako extractor in a Rem 700 or are the standard Rem 700 extractors good enough.

pete.

[chris.tyne]

I think Tony has said it like it is.
Mick that's not bad

Regards Chris.