Alternate sighting systems trial.

[Tony Z]

If you have read my recent post about artillery style aiming of a rifle then you will know what and how this was done.

I learned 4 things today. Firstly, that a 270 can shoot and makes a mockery of the short fat case and small primer and flash hole etc because if ever you wanted to do the "wrong" thing, then Jeff Harrison's 270 is the choice. Secondly, that the range we have up here and the mirage we have at this time of the year is a sight to behold, but i knew that already. Thirdly, the artillery style aiming post system most definitely has more to offer than what i may have thought initially. And lastly, what i thought i knew about our range and how the vertical appears on a target is not how i always thought it did. I had always assumed that the vertical on the fishtail was from a vertical boil and you were not actually aiming at a true target location (height). Well Jeff's last group went vertical and split because of some very changeable fishtail winds and it appears that the wind has a definite uplift and down lift effect from the undulating contours of our range. This was one group and the winds were getting pretty horrid and we had not a wind flag to be seen so it is hard to make a conclusive statement at this time and more trialing will take place shortly to see the real story.

The pictures give the details of the rifle, the aiming post and the first five shot group. That group measures 2.077" and has a vertical component of 0.940". Jeff tells me that this is the smallest group he has ever shot at this range (500M). I looked through his primary scope and it is my personal view that he would have never achieved a group of this size or the one after it using the conventional one scope aiming at distant target method. The boil was making it impossible to determine a consistent target sight picture on the distant target and there is no way other than fluke that anyone could have held a constant sight picture for five shots. The aiming post was placed at exactly 50 meters and as such had zero mirage effect when aimed at and the barrel is aligned to the 500M target and knows nothing of the mirage before it. We have a little ways to go yet as the whole system is very agricultural at the moment and further refinements will see more improvement.

In conclusion, this system has huge potential for group shooters and score shooters at long range where they are plagued by ranges that have difficult mirage providing that they can get their head around the idea of aiming at something that you are never going to hit. Sounds almost like the dancing target i saw at 500M today. It was very evident that watching Jeff shoot, the only thing he needed to concern himself with was a perfect hold on a 1/16" dot at 50 meters and the wind down range. It was on oversight on my part that we did not have wind flags out today and the scary part of that is that the first two groups are nice flat wind reports with one shot in each robbing both groups of being in the 1.xxx" area. In that mirage that would have been extraordinary. The other scary part is that i know that some of the vertical induced into those groups was from slight movements of the third plane i mentioned in the first post. Some of it will be from a little movement in the portable bench we used, but some of it is in the rests. That is what Jeff will be working on over the next few weeks. The rifle must return to battery exactly at all times for this to jell together and i can see this being done on an LG, but in another manner. There is no way that this method of aiming will replace the conventional sighting method and what most of the ranges down south experience, but if it is there all setup ready to go and the mirage does kick in, i can see a distinct advantage and one less element in the whole shooting package to deal with. Watching today and seeing how easy it was done has me convinced of that. A sight picture was very quick to get and very precise, neither of which can be gotten at distance on a day like today.

Jethro Bodine, Loose Cannon.

[Curtley78]

......I can see this being done on an LG, but in another manner. There is no way that this method of aiming will replace the conventional sighting method and what most of the ranges down south experience, but if it is there all setup ready to go and the mirage does kick in, i can see a distinct advantage and one less element in the whole shooting package to deal with. Watching today and seeing how easy it was done has me convinced of that. A sight picture was very quick to get and very precise, neither of which can be gotten at distance on a day like today.

Jethro Bodine, Loose Cannon.

G'day Tony,

Well done on the trial.

I dug out an older set of Parker Hale apertures that I have and wondered how I could have them fitted to a Remington, I then also thought that a Centra foresight may aid somewhat as opposed to using another scope. For the aiming mark I thought that a bright Orange clay would be ideal.

The only question would be whether it would be disputed during a match?

Regards

Sean

[justjeff]

Sean,

IBS rules state ' any sight', which basically means sights, or scopes, and the number thereof are free. However, for light gun, there may be an issue in that the weight of the rifle, under 17lbs, includes sight, so it could be argued that the tripod and reference target would have to be included in the total of 17 lbs. This is of course irrelevant with heavy gun, provided it can be lifted by the competitor.

Jeff Harrison

[a.JR]

You blokes worry me , i'm still coming to terms with trying to get the job done my way and you go and introduce new shit to think about ..Next thing someone will come up with is marked record shots or personal cameras ,heaven forbid...I'm going back to the site that has the lazers and bright lights ,my granddaughter and i like bright pretty things i'll have you know ..JR..Jeff Rogers

[Tony Z]

Sean, Jeff and i have talked about this at length in regards to what is or is not legal and what the implications might be for a LG. There is a way i could see it being interpreted in the rule book that the sight post, tripod etc has to be included in the weight calculation. I have a way around that for the LG and the sight post will be included in the all up weight calculation. I can use a sight post and aiming plate that will weigh only a few ounces, if that.
Initially there was a reservation on my part that this was a no go for LG due to weight. But a Nightforce which is most common on many LGs weighs just over a kilo. A base elevation scope does not need to be anything special and could be a 10 or 12 power where it just gets you on paper and be used to spot the markers during the sighter period. All aiming and adjustments to fall of shot are done with the aiming scope from here on in. But the other one does and always will be the reference point. The aiming scope can be a scope like a 36x Luepold etc. I know i can properly mount two of these types of scopes, even use one to offset torque, and come under the weight of one Nightforce. So weight is not an issue any longer. There is a way it can be done with the one scope, but that will have to be trialed before i say more.
The other reservation i have with LGs is that most of them move around way too much to return to the base reference to be reliable enough. This is an issue because any error at the bench with the triangulation is magnified 20 fold at 1K. Ten fold if the aim post is posted at 100 yards. There are two LGs up here that are capable enough and track like a HG. Mine and albow's are certainly capable of trialing this. BUT, this error of triangulation on the lateral plane can be minimized or even eliminated if the aiming post is placed at 0 degrees deflection to the bore line. If the third plane or third dimensional reference can be controlled, and it can, this system can be made to be more accurate than any scope ever made. So don't go out and purchase that March just yet.
Think back to the days when the Defence Department had money and i as a young sniper in training observed a 105 long howitzer walk up HE shells till it finally struck a refrigerator. Think of that in terms of MOA at 9 kilometers. First shell was 50 m short, second one was 50 m long and the third one made ice crystals .

To expand on this even further, the precision to which the aim can be had can enhance the potential for the use of the aiming post. For example an exact scaled replication of the 1K target can be made complete with aim off points for wind indexes including the inclination of the bullets reaction in flight when subjected to such winds. ie, the 17 degree slant we see across a target when shots are subjected to left or right winds. Yes there are lots of scope reticules that have all sorts of things etched into them, but they are not bullet specific as what this aiming target can be made to be. I think i would much prefer to see this on the actual aim post and cross reference it from shot fall marked on the actual 1K target. The potential here is limitless and there will be some serious trialing done over the next few weeks, but the more i think about it, the more i am inclined to think that this system will be used in any weather condition. Mirage or no mirage. It can piss down as hard as it likes and it can be almost pitch black, but if the sighting scope can see that aiming post, you will fire a group and score on your record target and you will never ever crossfire.

If there are any doubts about any of this, read the IBS rule book. It clearly states "any type of sights".

Jethro Bodine, Loose Cannon.

[Mick]

Very interesting...
The benefits could be amazing in the battle against mirage.
As for weight, a balsa wood dowel driven into the ground with a thin balsa reference target glued to the top would easily beat the weight restrictions if they came into play. Clarification of the rules would be nice there. Is it really part of the sighting system if it is not attached to the rifle? You could argue that the same could be done with a standard wind flag if you stuck a reference target to it....

[Rabbitz]

Could you hang a strip of cloth on the aiming post and call it a "flag"?

Rabz